Comments on: The Lost Admiral Returns http://tleaves.com/2004/12/20/the-lost-admiral-returns/ Creativity x Technology Sat, 17 Mar 2012 05:09:58 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: misere http://tleaves.com/2004/12/20/the-lost-admiral-returns/comment-page-1/#comment-805 misere Wed, 22 Dec 2004 04:06:38 +0000 http://tleaves.com/?p=262#comment-805 As a gamer, one of the main reasons I really really hate games that use the standard Windows GUI is because 99% of games I've tried that use it do such a half-assed job. Like they'll use all the buttons and controls, but hard-code all the text to be one color. And invariably that color only looks good if you're using the default grey Windows color scheme. Change it to even one of the other presets that come with Windows and the text will be invisible. Or if you switch to large fonts, you can either see only half of the text on all menu choices or the game screen gets horribly corrupted. Admittedly, there'll be problems no matter what if they're not testing their program with even slightly-modified configurations. But I'd rather encounter a piss-poor, ugly interface and blame it on the programmer not being able to draw (see Everett Kaser software) than one that completely breaks simply because I like the color blue more than grey or I like to sit more than 10 inches away from the monitor. If your software makes me open up the control panel, I'm clicking 'add/remove programs' before 'display properties'. As a gamer, one of the main reasons I really really hate games that use the standard Windows GUI is because 99% of games I’ve tried that use it do such a half-assed job. Like they’ll use all the buttons and controls, but hard-code all the text to be one color. And invariably that color only looks good if you’re using the default grey Windows color scheme. Change it to even one of the other presets that come with Windows and the text will be invisible. Or if you switch to large fonts, you can either see only half of the text on all menu choices or the game screen gets horribly corrupted.

Admittedly, there’ll be problems no matter what if they’re not testing their program with even slightly-modified configurations. But I’d rather encounter a piss-poor, ugly interface and blame it on the programmer not being able to draw (see Everett Kaser software) than one that completely breaks simply because I like the color blue more than grey or I like to sit more than 10 inches away from the monitor. If your software makes me open up the control panel, I’m clicking ‘add/remove programs’ before ‘display properties’.

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By: peterb http://tleaves.com/2004/12/20/the-lost-admiral-returns/comment-page-1/#comment-804 peterb Tue, 21 Dec 2004 01:55:44 +0000 http://tleaves.com/?p=262#comment-804 > (because gamers might appreciate something that > feels like Windows, but they certainly don't want > it to look like Windows) I hear this all the time. It's certainly the common wisdom. Is it really true? One aspect I tried to suggest in the discussion of UI but I didn't say explicitly is that the inputs required for the game impact how much UI design one should be doing. Obviously, if all the inputs for a game are expected to come from a gamepad -- left/right/up/down/shoot -- then there's no real need to make the game look (OR feel) like Windows. I think, however, that games that require you to use a mouse for pointing and clicking activities present a stronger case for using a more consistent look and feel. I know that everyone _thinks_ gamers will reject games that use standard GUI elements, but I've not seen any actual evidence of that, since so few have tried. Have you ever met anyone who thought that Spaceward Ho! (to pick one example) was less fun because it used standard MacOS GUI elements? Lastly, there's a middle ground between "use ugly Windows dialogue boxes and textareas for everything" and "rewrite the mouse tracking code, only get it slightly wrong, driving the user insane." As you point out, correctly, probably the most important thing is that the apps _act_ like the users expect, regardless of how they look. I'm going to wave my hands at the DirectX performance issues and say that if solving them is important, they can and will be solved. I'll also mutter something about Moore's Law under my breath. > (because gamers might appreciate something that
> feels like Windows, but they certainly don’t want
> it to look like Windows)

I hear this all the time. It’s certainly the common wisdom. Is it really true?

One aspect I tried to suggest in the discussion of UI but I didn’t say explicitly is that the inputs required for the game impact how much UI design one should be doing. Obviously, if all the inputs for a game are expected to come from a gamepad — left/right/up/down/shoot — then there’s no real need to make the game look (OR feel) like Windows. I think, however, that games that require you to use a mouse for pointing and clicking activities present a stronger case for using a more consistent look and feel. I know that everyone _thinks_ gamers will reject games that use standard GUI elements, but I’ve not seen any actual evidence of that, since so few have tried. Have you ever met anyone who thought that Spaceward Ho! (to pick one example) was less fun because it used standard MacOS GUI elements?

Lastly, there’s a middle ground between “use ugly Windows dialogue boxes and textareas for everything” and “rewrite the mouse tracking code, only get it slightly wrong, driving the user insane.” As you point out, correctly, probably the most important thing is that the apps _act_ like the users expect, regardless of how they look.

I’m going to wave my hands at the DirectX performance issues and say that if solving them is important, they can and will be solved. I’ll also mutter something about Moore’s Law under my breath.

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By: Ben Sizer http://tleaves.com/2004/12/20/the-lost-admiral-returns/comment-page-1/#comment-803 Ben Sizer Tue, 21 Dec 2004 00:43:35 +0000 http://tleaves.com/?p=262#comment-803 I think you've mentioned this before. You have to bear in mind that Windows GDI code and DirectX do not play nicely together. Ask Windows to give you a message box when you're doublebuffering in DirectX and there's a 50% chance it'll be drawn to the wrong buffer so you can't see it. Request GDI-compatible surfaces for DirectX and you'll see your frame-rates drop. Use plain MFC and owner-drawn controls (because gamers might appreciate something that feels like Windows, but they certainly don't want it to look like Windows) and you'll probably get something that feels smooth and looks nice, but it'll still be really slow (by game standards) and will require the game developer to have decent Win32/MFC skills on top of all their other game development skills. So for any small developer, it's likely that quite the opposite of what you say is true, as it is arguably quicker and easier to write their own GUI code (or use one of the many open source GUI packages) than try to wrestle with using the platform's native system within a game. I think you’ve mentioned this before. You have to bear in mind that Windows GDI code and DirectX do not play nicely together. Ask Windows to give you a message box when you’re doublebuffering in DirectX and there’s a 50% chance it’ll be drawn to the wrong buffer so you can’t see it. Request GDI-compatible surfaces for DirectX and you’ll see your frame-rates drop. Use plain MFC and owner-drawn controls (because gamers might appreciate something that feels like Windows, but they certainly don’t want it to look like Windows) and you’ll probably get something that feels smooth and looks nice, but it’ll still be really slow (by game standards) and will require the game developer to have decent Win32/MFC skills on top of all their other game development skills. So for any small developer, it’s likely that quite the opposite of what you say is true, as it is arguably quicker and easier to write their own GUI code (or use one of the many open source GUI packages) than try to wrestle with using the platform’s native system within a game.

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