Comments on: The Legend of Zelda: Chicken Savepoint Woman http://tleaves.com/2007/01/31/the-legend-of-zelda-chicken-savepoint-woman/ Creativity x Technology Sat, 17 Mar 2012 05:09:58 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Ben http://tleaves.com/2007/01/31/the-legend-of-zelda-chicken-savepoint-woman/comment-page-1/#comment-3634 Ben Thu, 08 Feb 2007 23:50:56 +0000 http://tleaves.com/?p=768#comment-3634 Yes I believe it had a 'save and quit' or something, so when you restarted you were either back and the overworld start or at the start of the dungeon. Benoit: saving to a file won't solve the problem though. I might let you load p an old save if you were silly enough to save yourself stuck - but that only works if you saved iterations in the first place, and even then you still lose an amount of gameplay time. it also has the potential to over-complicate what should really be a simple system (though I admit there are times where I would like multiple save iterations as well). Yes I believe it had a ‘save and quit’ or something, so when you restarted you were either back and the overworld start or at the start of the dungeon.

Benoit: saving to a file won’t solve the problem though. I might let you load p an old save if you were silly enough to save yourself stuck – but that only works if you saved iterations in the first place, and even then you still lose an amount of gameplay time. it also has the potential to over-complicate what should really be a simple system (though I admit there are times where I would like multiple save iterations as well).

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By: vextorspace http://tleaves.com/2007/01/31/the-legend-of-zelda-chicken-savepoint-woman/comment-page-1/#comment-3633 vextorspace Sat, 03 Feb 2007 03:36:38 +0000 http://tleaves.com/?p=768#comment-3633 In the original zelda you could hit start and select and it would send you back to the start. Actually, I think it killed you. I think I remember being back to 3 hearts when you did it. In the original zelda you could hit start and select and it would send you back to the start. Actually, I think it killed you. I think I remember being back to 3 hearts when you did it.

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By: Benoit http://tleaves.com/2007/01/31/the-legend-of-zelda-chicken-savepoint-woman/comment-page-1/#comment-3632 Benoit Sat, 03 Feb 2007 01:56:44 +0000 http://tleaves.com/?p=768#comment-3632 The full state isn't large. Let's call it 32 bits each for x/y/dungeon/hp/type. So, 20 bytes per thing you save. If you give me a mere megabyte, I can save 50,000 objects (monsters, piles of cash, whatever) around the world. Whack it with gzip to at the very least double the number of objects. To the "untenable position" thing, simply allow the user to save to a file. Then you can save as many savegames as fit on your storage media. If you want to be fancy, it wouldn't be *that* hard to provide unlimited undo (but it would start to cost enough memory to maybe, perhaps, start worrying about space usage). The full state isn’t large. Let’s call it 32 bits each for x/y/dungeon/hp/type. So, 20 bytes per thing you save. If you give me a mere megabyte, I can save 50,000 objects (monsters, piles of cash, whatever) around the world. Whack it with gzip to at the very least double the number of objects.

To the “untenable position” thing, simply allow the user to save to a file. Then you can save as many savegames as fit on your storage media. If you want to be fancy, it wouldn’t be *that* hard to provide unlimited undo (but it would start to cost enough memory to maybe, perhaps, start worrying about space usage).

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By: Chris http://tleaves.com/2007/01/31/the-legend-of-zelda-chicken-savepoint-woman/comment-page-1/#comment-3631 Chris Fri, 02 Feb 2007 15:57:40 +0000 http://tleaves.com/?p=768#comment-3631 The Japanese are more paranoid about QA issues than Western developers in my experience - to an extent that does negatively affect their game design decisions, sadly. If the Japanese could ease up on this, and the Western developers tighten up the odd insane design decisions which could never be adequately QA'ed, we'd all be in a better place. But as psu notes (and I had forgotten), the actual position isn't saved anyway, so any logical argument vanishes quite quickly. *shrugs* I withdraw my case, m'lud. Occoco less creepy than Tingle...? Well, I was about to agree, but then the idea fell into my head of the two creatures breeding together. *shudder*. I feel queasy now. Have fun! ;) The Japanese are more paranoid about QA issues than Western developers in my experience – to an extent that does negatively affect their game design decisions, sadly. If the Japanese could ease up on this, and the Western developers tighten up the odd insane design decisions which could never be adequately QA’ed, we’d all be in a better place. But as psu notes (and I had forgotten), the actual position isn’t saved anyway, so any logical argument vanishes quite quickly. *shrugs* I withdraw my case, m’lud.

Occoco less creepy than Tingle…? Well, I was about to agree, but then the idea fell into my head of the two creatures breeding together. *shudder*. I feel queasy now.

Have fun! ;)

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By: psu http://tleaves.com/2007/01/31/the-legend-of-zelda-chicken-savepoint-woman/comment-page-1/#comment-3630 psu Fri, 02 Feb 2007 00:27:40 +0000 http://tleaves.com/?p=768#comment-3630 The new Zelda, even with the warp harpy, really does only save the room you are in. Not your actual position in the world. The new Zelda, even with the warp harpy, really does only save the room you are in. Not your actual position in the world.

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By: Ben http://tleaves.com/2007/01/31/the-legend-of-zelda-chicken-savepoint-woman/comment-page-1/#comment-3629 Ben Thu, 01 Feb 2007 23:32:51 +0000 http://tleaves.com/?p=768#comment-3629 You could also, rather than saving the exact position, simply save the room you are in, starting you at the last door you went through upon load. Reworking your way through a small room is next to irrelevant (not to mention you often back track through rooms many times anyway trying to solve puzzles), and solves a lot of problems, such the saving in inescapable locations, as well as issues of what happens to enemies? i wouldn't want them to respawn every time i load if my exact position happens to be surrounded by them, not to mention the extra memory required for saving the exact positions and state of every (relevant) object and enemy in the room. On the other hand if i restart at the entry to the room and everything is reset, there is no problem. I'd like to add though I've never had any serious problems with the save system. Being aware that I would restart at the entry if i quite mid dungeon, I have always endeavored to complete a dungeon in one sitting. This usually means leaving the game as I enter the dungeon, and dedicating my next play session to the dungeon. The save system only becomes annoying if I have to leave it for some reason, or if the dungeon is so long I want to take a break. Unfortunately this is still just a work around. Myself adjusting my play sessions to compensate for the games problem. I shouldn't have to do this, but none-the-less it has resulted in very few save irritations. So despite the broken save system, I can't say I have anything to really complain about. You could also, rather than saving the exact position, simply save the room you are in, starting you at the last door you went through upon load. Reworking your way through a small room is next to irrelevant (not to mention you often back track through rooms many times anyway trying to solve puzzles), and solves a lot of problems, such the saving in inescapable locations, as well as issues of what happens to enemies? i wouldn’t want them to respawn every time i load if my exact position happens to be surrounded by them, not to mention the extra memory required for saving the exact positions and state of every (relevant) object and enemy in the room. On the other hand if i restart at the entry to the room and everything is reset, there is no problem.

I’d like to add though I’ve never had any serious problems with the save system. Being aware that I would restart at the entry if i quite mid dungeon, I have always endeavored to complete a dungeon in one sitting. This usually means leaving the game as I enter the dungeon, and dedicating my next play session to the dungeon. The save system only becomes annoying if I have to leave it for some reason, or if the dungeon is so long I want to take a break.

Unfortunately this is still just a work around. Myself adjusting my play sessions to compensate for the games problem. I shouldn’t have to do this, but none-the-less it has resulted in very few save irritations. So despite the broken save system, I can’t say I have anything to really complain about.

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By: peterb http://tleaves.com/2007/01/31/the-legend-of-zelda-chicken-savepoint-woman/comment-page-1/#comment-3628 peterb Thu, 01 Feb 2007 12:54:17 +0000 http://tleaves.com/?p=768#comment-3628 I hear this argument proposed every time this subject comes up, and I don't buy it, not even a little bit. For one thing, "ruin the user interaction of a game just to avoid hypothetically possible programming bugs" is pathological. For another, you could solve this problem trivially by just <em> giving </em> the player a damn Warpy Dungeon-B-Gone Escapey stone when the game starts, and then go ahead an implement the non-retarded solution from the start. In other words, the goal of protecting against this sort of programming bug is entirely orthogonal to the need to implement an utterly retarded save system that doesn't actually <em>save</em>. We can all agree, at least, that Oocoo is not even half as creepy as Tingle. I hear this argument proposed every time this subject comes up, and I don’t buy it, not even a little bit. For one thing, “ruin the user interaction of a game just to avoid hypothetically possible programming bugs” is pathological. For another, you could solve this problem trivially by just giving the player a damn Warpy Dungeon-B-Gone Escapey stone when the game starts, and then go ahead an implement the non-retarded solution from the start. In other words, the goal of protecting against this sort of programming bug is entirely orthogonal to the need to implement an utterly retarded save system that doesn’t actually save.

We can all agree, at least, that Oocoo is not even half as creepy as Tingle.

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By: Chris http://tleaves.com/2007/01/31/the-legend-of-zelda-chicken-savepoint-woman/comment-page-1/#comment-3627 Chris Thu, 01 Feb 2007 09:05:05 +0000 http://tleaves.com/?p=768#comment-3627 As someone who liked the old Zelda system of hermetic saves, I found the new system of restoring control of the saves to the player to be slightly annoying. I agree that design decisions were made for this game that attempted to balance the expectations of established fans with an attempt to fix outstanding complaints. Like you, I feel that the ultimate result satisfies no-one. It didn't even occur to me for quite some time that I could use chicken lady in the manner you describe - I was using her to go and explore the overworld in my spare time when my wife and I were working through a dungeon together. I even used her in the Temple of Time to find an alternative solution to a problem I was stuck on, which was a nice piece of lateral thinking on my part, but still a bit bizarre. However, I can at least explain why the game does not save position in the dungeon... I strongly suspect it is because it is hypothetically possible that the player can save in a dungeon in an untenable position - one that results in death or entrapment every time you reload. (Note that the problem here is that it is impossible to test in QA all of the possibilities; the risk is actually very low that this might actually happen, but since it cannot be eliminated as a possibility...) The fix for this is that you must save dungeon position out of the dungeon, so that when you reload you always have a second option - to re-enter the dungeon. Now that said, just because chicken lady fixes this problem doesn't mean that this was the best solution. I think we can all agree that there were better ways around this problem. Still, at least we all get to be freaked out by her blue nipples. ;) Best wishes! As someone who liked the old Zelda system of hermetic saves, I found the new system of restoring control of the saves to the player to be slightly annoying. I agree that design decisions were made for this game that attempted to balance the expectations of established fans with an attempt to fix outstanding complaints. Like you, I feel that the ultimate result satisfies no-one.

It didn’t even occur to me for quite some time that I could use chicken lady in the manner you describe – I was using her to go and explore the overworld in my spare time when my wife and I were working through a dungeon together. I even used her in the Temple of Time to find an alternative solution to a problem I was stuck on, which was a nice piece of lateral thinking on my part, but still a bit bizarre.

However, I can at least explain why the game does not save position in the dungeon… I strongly suspect it is because it is hypothetically possible that the player can save in a dungeon in an untenable position – one that results in death or entrapment every time you reload. (Note that the problem here is that it is impossible to test in QA all of the possibilities; the risk is actually very low that this might actually happen, but since it cannot be eliminated as a possibility…) The fix for this is that you must save dungeon position out of the dungeon, so that when you reload you always have a second option – to re-enter the dungeon. Now that said, just because chicken lady fixes this problem doesn’t mean that this was the best solution. I think we can all agree that there were better ways around this problem. Still, at least we all get to be freaked out by her blue nipples. ;)

Best wishes!

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By: Matt http://tleaves.com/2007/01/31/the-legend-of-zelda-chicken-savepoint-woman/comment-page-1/#comment-3626 Matt Thu, 01 Feb 2007 02:33:33 +0000 http://tleaves.com/?p=768#comment-3626 I did find one other practical use for this system. In the sky city where the Oocoos live, I often found myself running out of arrows due to trying to pick off the numerous flying enemies in each room from long distance. It was handy to be able to warp back to the store at the beginning of the dungeon to resupply, then warp straight back to where I was. There's also an interesting limitation that when you revisit a dungeon to, say, pick up missing heart pieces, warping is no longer an option, so after finding the right chest, you have to retrace your steps to the beginning. I suppose in this case, it would work to save, quit, and reload, but that tends to ruin the experience of a nice gaming session for me. I did find one other practical use for this system. In the sky city where the Oocoos live, I often found myself running out of arrows due to trying to pick off the numerous flying enemies in each room from long distance. It was handy to be able to warp back to the store at the beginning of the dungeon to resupply, then warp straight back to where I was.

There’s also an interesting limitation that when you revisit a dungeon to, say, pick up missing heart pieces, warping is no longer an option, so after finding the right chest, you have to retrace your steps to the beginning. I suppose in this case, it would work to save, quit, and reload, but that tends to ruin the experience of a nice gaming session for me.

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By: psu http://tleaves.com/2007/01/31/the-legend-of-zelda-chicken-savepoint-woman/comment-page-1/#comment-3625 psu Wed, 31 Jan 2007 23:09:57 +0000 http://tleaves.com/?p=768#comment-3625 EDIT: I linked to the movie in the body text of the piece. It had to be done. EDIT: I linked to the movie in the body text of the piece. It had to be done.

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