Comments on: They Are Both Stupid, Redux http://tleaves.com/2007/07/31/they-are-both-stupid-redux/ Creativity x Technology Sat, 17 Mar 2012 05:09:58 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Jason Preston http://tleaves.com/2007/07/31/they-are-both-stupid-redux/comment-page-1/#comment-4131 Jason Preston Tue, 07 Aug 2007 07:01:31 +0000 http://tleaves.com/2007/07/31/they-are-both-stupid-redux/#comment-4131 @Psu: I think you're mostly dead-on here. There's a lot to be said for taking a step back from the hand-me-down arguments for the legitimacy of gaming narrative. That being said, however, I think you're still overselling the comparison between the mediums of film, books, and video games. Book and Film make good partners. They share the same structure. I learned everything I know about writing books from a screenwriting class (maybe that's why I haven't published anything...hmm....) But making a good video game experience is, I think, an entirely new field of art. If it's close to anything, it's close to a making good version of RISK. Also, I really enjoyed reading this post. @Psu: I think you’re mostly dead-on here. There’s a lot to be said for taking a step back from the hand-me-down arguments for the legitimacy of gaming narrative.

That being said, however, I think you’re still overselling the comparison between the mediums of film, books, and video games. Book and Film make good partners. They share the same structure. I learned everything I know about writing books from a screenwriting class (maybe that’s why I haven’t published anything…hmm….)

But making a good video game experience is, I think, an entirely new field of art. If it’s close to anything, it’s close to a making good version of RISK.

Also, I really enjoyed reading this post.

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By: dug loose http://tleaves.com/2007/07/31/they-are-both-stupid-redux/comment-page-1/#comment-4133 dug loose Fri, 03 Aug 2007 05:32:18 +0000 http://tleaves.com/2007/07/31/they-are-both-stupid-redux/#comment-4133 i grew up in the Golden Age of (arcade) Video Games. learning assembly programming at an early age helped me to appreciate the restrictions that early video game designers had to cope with. as i grew up and as the restrictions eased on designers, i started to recognize the the preference for flash over gameplay. i cannot deny the appeal that flashy graphics have (first understood in the 68000 based games) nor the literary pertinence of massive bloodshed and wanton violence (i think Atari's NARC got that down as well as needed). unlike some retro video game luddites, i do not think you can saliently separate the visual and contextual elements from the gameplay itself. they coalesce to a relevant whole text, which has to be considered along with the cultural experience of the player. we should remember the commercial interest involve. one of my working definitions of insanity is the denial of one's own mortality (think michael jackson). video games are a wonderful example of the reinforcement of this particular kind of insanity. the american market, for which all the games mentioned above are created, thrives on this reinforcement. hell, who really wants to die? video games have always allowed us to experience the kind of rebirth we're not likely to get after this life. that's what the market seems to want, and that's what the market gets (along with all the other elements that we crave). we're talking about the market leaders, those games produced to sell big. luckily, just like arthouse theatre, there are certainly plenty of alternatives, if you care to seek them out. (try my current fave: http://www.experimentalgameplay.com/) the question there is: will the internet help small producers influence the practices of the big producers? if not, what other force could possibly change games for the better? i grew up in the Golden Age of (arcade) Video Games. learning assembly programming at an early age helped me to appreciate the restrictions that early video game designers had to cope with. as i grew up and as the restrictions eased on designers, i started to recognize the the preference for flash over gameplay. i cannot deny the appeal that flashy graphics have (first understood in the 68000 based games) nor the literary pertinence of massive bloodshed and wanton violence (i think Atari’s NARC got that down as well as needed).

unlike some retro video game luddites, i do not think you can saliently separate the visual and contextual elements from the gameplay itself. they coalesce to a relevant whole text, which has to be considered along with the cultural experience of the player.

we should remember the commercial interest involve.

one of my working definitions of insanity is the denial of one’s own mortality (think michael jackson). video games are a wonderful example of the reinforcement of this particular kind of insanity. the american market, for which all the games mentioned above are created, thrives on this reinforcement. hell, who really wants to die? video games have always allowed us to experience the kind of rebirth we’re not likely to get after this life.

that’s what the market seems to want, and that’s what the market gets (along with all the other elements that we crave).

we’re talking about the market leaders, those games produced to sell big. luckily, just like arthouse theatre, there are certainly plenty of alternatives, if you care to seek them out. (try my current fave: http://www.experimentalgameplay.com/)

the question there is: will the internet help small producers influence the practices of the big producers? if not, what other force could possibly change games for the better?

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By: psu http://tleaves.com/2007/07/31/they-are-both-stupid-redux/comment-page-1/#comment-4135 psu Thu, 02 Aug 2007 22:15:37 +0000 http://tleaves.com/2007/07/31/they-are-both-stupid-redux/#comment-4135 I'll agree that the narrative style in the Half-Life games keep you playing the game and do a good job of setting up atmosphere and sense of place. I was just making a snarky point that ultimately they never lead to any kind of conclusion and I think this is by design. :) I’ll agree that the narrative style in the Half-Life games keep you playing the game and do a good job of setting up atmosphere and sense of place. I was just making a snarky point that ultimately they never lead to any kind of conclusion and I think this is by design. :)

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By: Eli Mordino http://tleaves.com/2007/07/31/they-are-both-stupid-redux/comment-page-1/#comment-4134 Eli Mordino Thu, 02 Aug 2007 16:46:57 +0000 http://tleaves.com/2007/07/31/they-are-both-stupid-redux/#comment-4134 One problem, I think, is that the distinction between art and whatever-the-hell-everything-else-is isn't all that important. I mean, it's important to people like Ebert because making these kind of distinctions is his bread and butter. But the average joe, or even Joe Intellectual, doesn't sit down and think "Right, do I want to spend the next hour indulging in some art, high art or escapism?" I also want to step in in defence of my darling Half-Life. You could sum up an awful lot of stories in that way (Moby Dick: Guy gets pissed off at whale, tries to kill whale, screws up). The beauty of HL is that it doesn't bother trying to set up a narrative in an A->B->C kind of way, like a book or film does, for the simple reason that books and films are always going to be better at that. But it is a uniquely game-ish narrative, in that the player experiences only what the protagonist experiences and is thus gently led into filling the narrative gap without outside exposition. So, for instance, in HL2 you can infer the brutal way of life in City 17, discover the notice board in Black Mesa East and piece together the events that led here, explore an abandoned house by the sea and wonder what happened to it... I don't think I'm making my point entirely clear, but I genuinely love the way Valve tell the story in these games, and I think anyone who's interested in the storytelling art should take note. One problem, I think, is that the distinction between art and whatever-the-hell-everything-else-is isn’t all that important. I mean, it’s important to people like Ebert because making these kind of distinctions is his bread and butter. But the average joe, or even Joe Intellectual, doesn’t sit down and think “Right, do I want to spend the next hour indulging in some art, high art or escapism?”

I also want to step in in defence of my darling Half-Life. You could sum up an awful lot of stories in that way (Moby Dick: Guy gets pissed off at whale, tries to kill whale, screws up). The beauty of HL is that it doesn’t bother trying to set up a narrative in an A->B->C kind of way, like a book or film does, for the simple reason that books and films are always going to be better at that. But it is a uniquely game-ish narrative, in that the player experiences only what the protagonist experiences and is thus gently led into filling the narrative gap without outside exposition.

So, for instance, in HL2 you can infer the brutal way of life in City 17, discover the notice board in Black Mesa East and piece together the events that led here, explore an abandoned house by the sea and wonder what happened to it…

I don’t think I’m making my point entirely clear, but I genuinely love the way Valve tell the story in these games, and I think anyone who’s interested in the storytelling art should take note.

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By: Doug http://tleaves.com/2007/07/31/they-are-both-stupid-redux/comment-page-1/#comment-4136 Doug Wed, 01 Aug 2007 23:34:18 +0000 http://tleaves.com/2007/07/31/they-are-both-stupid-redux/#comment-4136 I would have loved wind walker if I didn't spend so much time sailing from island to island. I would have loved wind walker if I didn’t spend so much time sailing from island to island.

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By: Doug http://tleaves.com/2007/07/31/they-are-both-stupid-redux/comment-page-1/#comment-4130 Doug Wed, 01 Aug 2007 14:06:48 +0000 http://tleaves.com/2007/07/31/they-are-both-stupid-redux/#comment-4130 I am not an avid gamer, so maybe that's why I mostly agree with what you've said. I'm curious how you think a title like "Legend of Zelda: Wind Walker" fits into this discussion? I bring it up because it's a game that I and my kids have played over and over and over. It's relatively free form even though there is a clear story. The story certainly doesn't adapt to the player. I am not an avid gamer, so maybe that’s why I mostly agree with what you’ve said. I’m curious how you think a title like “Legend of Zelda: Wind Walker” fits into this discussion? I bring it up because it’s a game that I and my kids have played over and over and over. It’s relatively free form even though there is a clear story. The story certainly doesn’t adapt to the player.

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By: Doug http://tleaves.com/2007/07/31/they-are-both-stupid-redux/comment-page-1/#comment-4132 Doug Wed, 01 Aug 2007 04:03:04 +0000 http://tleaves.com/2007/07/31/they-are-both-stupid-redux/#comment-4132 I love rpg's because they let me believe I'm the protagonist easier than a movie or book does. This allows the story to suck more without taking away from my enjoyment. I used to play them because I loved the feeling of accomplishment I got from completing them too. Now I am an engineer (and I think a good one) and I get my accomplishment feelings from real challenges. But I still like a good story that I myself get to play the hero in. This has narrowed the games I like. If you give me some no good two bit thief who doesn't mind his parents and doesn't study as the protagonist, I will not enjoy it. I need to have a character I could relate to. So I prefer games that either give me the character I want, or give me a cipher that I can pretend is whatever I want. I'm waiting for a decent rpg on the ps3. Nothing yet. I satisfy myself with joust, rubber ducky, and resistance. And I await ratchet & clank with great anticipation. I love rpg’s because they let me believe I’m the protagonist easier than a movie or book does. This allows the story to suck more without taking away from my enjoyment. I used to play them because I loved the feeling of accomplishment I got from completing them too. Now I am an engineer (and I think a good one) and I get my accomplishment feelings from real challenges. But I still like a good story that I myself get to play the hero in. This has narrowed the games I like. If you give me some no good two bit thief who doesn’t mind his parents and doesn’t study as the protagonist, I will not enjoy it. I need to have a character I could relate to. So I prefer games that either give me the character I want, or give me a cipher that I can pretend is whatever I want. I’m waiting for a decent rpg on the ps3. Nothing yet. I satisfy myself with joust, rubber ducky, and resistance. And I await ratchet & clank with great anticipation.

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