Comments on: Mission Tenpossible http://tleaves.com/2007/11/15/mission-tenpossible/ Creativity x Technology Sat, 17 Mar 2012 05:09:58 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Eliot http://tleaves.com/2007/11/15/mission-tenpossible/comment-page-1/#comment-4505 Eliot Mon, 19 Nov 2007 21:31:07 +0000 http://tleaves.com/2007/11/15/mission-tenpossible/#comment-4505 I've never played any Fire Emblem. Ever. Not Once. And yet the situation described feels like deja vu. Anyone remember the original Mechcommander? Pilot death was just as severe after passing the early levels, there was no in-mission save feature, and it was quite likely that a pilot would be splattered by a single shot from a heavy weapon (PPC, Gauss Rifle, I'm looking at you). Worse, it was real-time, so you could also get your pilots killed by slow reaction time in your orders. I don't recall how many times I restarted a level and I don't think that I ever finished the original campaign. Yet the fact that your pilots mattered really did add to the feel of the campaign. I remember the game fondly, despite the level of frustration that I went through while playing it. They just never got the balance quite right in that franchise (in Mechcommander 2, I breezed through and almost never had to worry if my pilots bought the farm). The holy grail is the tactical game that does hit that perfect balance. I’ve never played any Fire Emblem. Ever. Not Once.

And yet the situation described feels like deja vu. Anyone remember the original Mechcommander? Pilot death was just as severe after passing the early levels, there was no in-mission save feature, and it was quite likely that a pilot would be splattered by a single shot from a heavy weapon (PPC, Gauss Rifle, I’m looking at you). Worse, it was real-time, so you could also get your pilots killed by slow reaction time in your orders. I don’t recall how many times I restarted a level and I don’t think that I ever finished the original campaign.

Yet the fact that your pilots mattered really did add to the feel of the campaign. I remember the game fondly, despite the level of frustration that I went through while playing it. They just never got the balance quite right in that franchise (in Mechcommander 2, I breezed through and almost never had to worry if my pilots bought the farm). The holy grail is the tactical game that does hit that perfect balance.

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By: Nelson http://tleaves.com/2007/11/15/mission-tenpossible/comment-page-1/#comment-4504 Nelson Mon, 19 Nov 2007 20:45:34 +0000 http://tleaves.com/2007/11/15/mission-tenpossible/#comment-4504 I don't get it, peterb. Why reload? I haven't played the game; is Boyd essential? I don’t get it, peterb. Why reload? I haven’t played the game; is Boyd essential?

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By: Alex Groce http://tleaves.com/2007/11/15/mission-tenpossible/comment-page-1/#comment-4507 Alex Groce Mon, 19 Nov 2007 17:15:32 +0000 http://tleaves.com/2007/11/15/mission-tenpossible/#comment-4507 Hrm. I don't know. On normal mode, both Sacred Stones and Path of Radiance just didn't frustrate me that much, and I'm not even terribly good at these games (I can't win Advance Wars DS, which peterb can roll over easily). But maybe it's a different tolerance for restarting a level -- I don't mind in Fire Emblem because, once you know what you're doing, and you turn off all animations, running back through a level is not much more time consuming than, say, running back through the last bit of a Super Mario Galaxy level. At least I don't think it is -- if the # of iterations was 5, instead of about 3, I might hate it; if the game-play was much slower, I might hate it. As it is, it's slightly more irritating than backtracking to last checkpoint in Halo, but I can also do a little polishing of my moves now that I see how I could have given the kill XP to the crazy anime gal myrmidon I'm trying to level instead of the already overpowered knight, or something. That said, I'm looking forward to saving at the boss, on the Wii. Hrm. I don’t know. On normal mode, both Sacred Stones and Path of Radiance just didn’t frustrate me that much, and I’m not even terribly good at these games (I can’t win Advance Wars DS, which peterb can roll over easily). But maybe it’s a different tolerance for restarting a level — I don’t mind in Fire Emblem because, once you know what you’re doing, and you turn off all animations, running back through a level is not much more time consuming than, say, running back through the last bit of a Super Mario Galaxy level. At least I don’t think it is — if the # of iterations was 5, instead of about 3, I might hate it; if the game-play was much slower, I might hate it. As it is, it’s slightly more irritating than backtracking to last checkpoint in Halo, but I can also do a little polishing of my moves now that I see how I could have given the kill XP to the crazy anime gal myrmidon I’m trying to level instead of the already overpowered knight, or something.

That said, I’m looking forward to saving at the boss, on the Wii.

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By: peterb http://tleaves.com/2007/11/15/mission-tenpossible/comment-page-1/#comment-4514 peterb Mon, 19 Nov 2007 06:19:03 +0000 http://tleaves.com/2007/11/15/mission-tenpossible/#comment-4514 Update: Mission 18 ("Crimea Marches"), Boyd dies <em>again</em>, another god-damned reload. Update: Mission 18 (“Crimea Marches”), Boyd dies again, another god-damned reload.

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By: Doug http://tleaves.com/2007/11/15/mission-tenpossible/comment-page-1/#comment-4509 Doug Sat, 17 Nov 2007 15:34:59 +0000 http://tleaves.com/2007/11/15/mission-tenpossible/#comment-4509 I thought the biggest problem was that you had to kill something to level up. The dancer didn't dance better because she did it a lot, she had to run in and slit some goblin's throat. We're back to basic D&D here. I still enjoyed playing through the game (in a marathon session in a car drive from Texas to Oregon). There were a couple battles I had to do a number of times to preserve my favorite characters. But towards the end I stopped caring about it as much. I thought the biggest problem was that you had to kill something to level up. The dancer didn’t dance better because she did it a lot, she had to run in and slit some goblin’s throat. We’re back to basic D&D here. I still enjoyed playing through the game (in a marathon session in a car drive from Texas to Oregon). There were a couple battles I had to do a number of times to preserve my favorite characters. But towards the end I stopped caring about it as much.

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By: Nelson http://tleaves.com/2007/11/15/mission-tenpossible/comment-page-1/#comment-4513 Nelson Fri, 16 Nov 2007 16:03:43 +0000 http://tleaves.com/2007/11/15/mission-tenpossible/#comment-4513 I agree that both of the statements don't have meaning. My enjoyment of Fire Emblem stems from the fact that I did have characters die, and that I could finish the game effectively anyway. Without spoilers or much knowledge of how Fire Emblem works. I think there's two different arguments with Fire Emblem's design. One argument is that Fire Emblem is not well balanced, in that if an average player loses a character occasionally and doesn't reload then they can't finish the game. That wasn't my experience, at least in Sacred Stones, and I'm not some uber-gamer. But maybe it's not well balanced and is a little too hard. You could imagine that being tuned. The other argument is that the core mechanic of Fire Emblem is itself broken. That death-with-consequences makes for a bad tactical strategy game. I really disagree with that; I loved the added element that death brought to the games. I like that you have to take risks in the middle game to level your characters, because those risks are even more fun since they have significant consequence. Again, I'm assuming with good design the consequence isn't "I can't win the game" but rather "I have to find a different way to win with the abundant resources I have". The bit about taking characters away from you is pretty cheap, though. I agree on that score. I've only played the GBA versions, so maybe I've missed something. I agree that both of the statements don’t have meaning. My enjoyment of Fire Emblem stems from the fact that I did have characters die, and that I could finish the game effectively anyway. Without spoilers or much knowledge of how Fire Emblem works.

I think there’s two different arguments with Fire Emblem’s design. One argument is that Fire Emblem is not well balanced, in that if an average player loses a character occasionally and doesn’t reload then they can’t finish the game. That wasn’t my experience, at least in Sacred Stones, and I’m not some uber-gamer. But maybe it’s not well balanced and is a little too hard. You could imagine that being tuned.

The other argument is that the core mechanic of Fire Emblem is itself broken. That death-with-consequences makes for a bad tactical strategy game. I really disagree with that; I loved the added element that death brought to the games. I like that you have to take risks in the middle game to level your characters, because those risks are even more fun since they have significant consequence. Again, I’m assuming with good design the consequence isn’t “I can’t win the game” but rather “I have to find a different way to win with the abundant resources I have”.

The bit about taking characters away from you is pretty cheap, though. I agree on that score.

I’ve only played the GBA versions, so maybe I’ve missed something.

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By: Ben http://tleaves.com/2007/11/15/mission-tenpossible/comment-page-1/#comment-4508 Ben Fri, 16 Nov 2007 15:29:13 +0000 http://tleaves.com/2007/11/15/mission-tenpossible/#comment-4508 @peterb A fair point, although IIRC on my first Normal playthrough of PoR I did concentrate mainly on Titania and another couple of Paladins and never had much trouble: things like "Rescue" and that character with the ability to untap other characters come in very useful. It's only in hard mode that you have to be really careful. Presumably on Easy mode it's much more forgiving. @peterb

A fair point, although IIRC on my first Normal playthrough of PoR I did concentrate mainly on Titania and another couple of Paladins and never had much trouble: things like “Rescue” and that character with the ability to untap other characters come in very useful. It’s only in hard mode that you have to be really careful. Presumably on Easy mode it’s much more forgiving.

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By: peterb http://tleaves.com/2007/11/15/mission-tenpossible/comment-page-1/#comment-4512 peterb Fri, 16 Nov 2007 15:02:31 +0000 http://tleaves.com/2007/11/15/mission-tenpossible/#comment-4512 I think the fundamental brokenness of <em>Fire Emblem</em> is very well demonstrated by the responses here. There are two points being offered: (1) Death has "meaning", which improves the drama in the game. (2) If you're good at the game, your characters will never die, n00b. <em>Both of these statements can not be true.</em> In addition to being a per-mission strategic puzzle, <em>Fire Emblem</em> also has a long-term training element. Characters who do not come into proximity with the enemy (I'm ignoring a few exceptions), don't gain levels. I have certainly encountered situations in every <em>Fire Emblem</em> game where the only way to kill a given strong enemy unit was to <em>take a risk</em>: if this weak unit hits the enemy, the enemy will die. If this weak unit misses, the enemy will retaliate and the weak unit will die. In other words, the claim that one can waltz through the middle levels of the game risk-free assumes that one already knows all of the things you learn from gamefaqs (and that are not even <em>hinted at</em> in the in-game tutorials): Don't use the pre-promoted "strong" unit in the early battles, work hard to 'exercise' your archers and priests, don't use these characters here because they're going to disappear after mission 4, and so on. So for example, a player who takes the obvious path through <em>Path of Radiance</em> and spends the first few missions heavily relying on Titania, Gatrie, and Shinon, is going to reach the midgame and be <em>utterly and completely screwed</em>. Combine those attributes with permadeath and no (reasonable) in-battle saves, and the only way to make the games playable would be to add a new feature: an in-game web browser that pops up an overlay window bringing the player to the Gamefaqs "turn by turn walkthrough" so he can make sure he plays it "right." I am perfectly comfortable taking the addition of the in-battle quicksave as an admission by Intelligent Systems that they were completely wrong, and they sincerely apologize for their utter perfidy. Apology accepted. I think the fundamental brokenness of Fire Emblem is very well demonstrated by the responses here. There are two points being offered:

(1) Death has “meaning”, which improves the drama in the game.
(2) If you’re good at the game, your characters will never die, n00b.

Both of these statements can not be true.

In addition to being a per-mission strategic puzzle, Fire Emblem also has a long-term training element. Characters who do not come into proximity with the enemy (I’m ignoring a few exceptions), don’t gain levels. I have certainly encountered situations in every Fire Emblem game where the only way to kill a given strong enemy unit was to take a risk: if this weak unit hits the enemy, the enemy will die. If this weak unit misses, the enemy will retaliate and the weak unit will die.

In other words, the claim that one can waltz through the middle levels of the game risk-free assumes that one already knows all of the things you learn from gamefaqs (and that are not even hinted at in the in-game tutorials): Don’t use the pre-promoted “strong” unit in the early battles, work hard to ‘exercise’ your archers and priests, don’t use these characters here because they’re going to disappear after mission 4, and so on. So for example, a player who takes the obvious path through Path of Radiance and spends the first few missions heavily relying on Titania, Gatrie, and Shinon, is going to reach the midgame and be utterly and completely screwed.

Combine those attributes with permadeath and no (reasonable) in-battle saves, and the only way to make the games playable would be to add a new feature: an in-game web browser that pops up an overlay window bringing the player to the Gamefaqs “turn by turn walkthrough” so he can make sure he plays it “right.”

I am perfectly comfortable taking the addition of the in-battle quicksave as an admission by Intelligent Systems that they were completely wrong, and they sincerely apologize for their utter perfidy.

Apology accepted.

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By: Ben http://tleaves.com/2007/11/15/mission-tenpossible/comment-page-1/#comment-4510 Ben Fri, 16 Nov 2007 13:37:01 +0000 http://tleaves.com/2007/11/15/mission-tenpossible/#comment-4510 @Thomas I think the point of the permadeath is that it forces you to think about positioning. If you're struggling with the tutorial missions, perhaps Fire Emblem isn't the series for you. It's pretty easy to level up weaker characters without exposing them to danger - whittle down an enemy's health with ranged weapons or stronger characters first, then use the weaker character to finish them off. The GC game gives you bonus XP as well you can dish out to any character. Personally, I like the Fire Emblem games because they become essentially logic puzzles on the later levels. For those that don't like that kind of thing there's simpler strategy RPGs like FFTA. @Thomas
I think the point of the permadeath is that it forces you to think about positioning. If you’re struggling with the tutorial missions, perhaps Fire Emblem isn’t the series for you.

It’s pretty easy to level up weaker characters without exposing them to danger – whittle down an enemy’s health with ranged weapons or stronger characters first, then use the weaker character to finish them off. The GC game gives you bonus XP as well you can dish out to any character.

Personally, I like the Fire Emblem games because they become essentially logic puzzles on the later levels. For those that don’t like that kind of thing there’s simpler strategy RPGs like FFTA.

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By: Thomas http://tleaves.com/2007/11/15/mission-tenpossible/comment-page-1/#comment-4511 Thomas Fri, 16 Nov 2007 13:05:20 +0000 http://tleaves.com/2007/11/15/mission-tenpossible/#comment-4511 I only made it <a href="http://www.milezero.org/index.cgi/gaming/design/reaping_the_consequences.html" rel="nofollow">through level 5</a> when I tried a Fire Emblem game. Worst game mechanic ever. I only made it through level 5 when I tried a Fire Emblem game.

Worst game mechanic ever.

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