Comments on: Other People’s Talents http://tleaves.com/2010/01/27/other-peoples-talents/ Creativity x Technology Sat, 17 Mar 2012 05:09:58 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: HappyHappyJoyJoy http://tleaves.com/2010/01/27/other-peoples-talents/comment-page-1/#comment-6729 HappyHappyJoyJoy Thu, 29 Apr 2010 04:42:15 +0000 http://tleaves.com/?p=2385#comment-6729 Here's the deal...there are always going to be people "better" at things than you are. But you forget that there are also a BOATLOAD worse than you. So, why only focus upwards? Besides, you are incredibly interesting, which lots of people aren't. And you're a compelling writer. I've just spent 45 minutes reading your blog and enjoying your stories (even if I won't be making artichoke stuff anytime soon). Here’s the deal…there are always going to be people “better” at things than you are. But you forget that there are also a BOATLOAD worse than you. So, why only focus upwards?

Besides, you are incredibly interesting, which lots of people aren’t.

And you’re a compelling writer. I’ve just spent 45 minutes reading your blog and enjoying your stories (even if I won’t be making artichoke stuff anytime soon).

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By: boze http://tleaves.com/2010/01/27/other-peoples-talents/comment-page-1/#comment-6438 boze Sat, 06 Feb 2010 15:50:17 +0000 http://tleaves.com/?p=2385#comment-6438 It turns out we don't disagree at all then. I guess psu's main problem is that some of the people he knows are better at every one of his own talents. That would be annoying. Like he should just taking up knitting and not tell anybody. I can't speak to coding, but, unlike athletics, music and art are more a question of vision, style, and technique than talent and ability. Take folk music for example, which is hardly a measure of who strums the best or writes the most cliché lyric about heartbreak. So maybe I'm hanging out in a safer arena that's more about expression than excellence. I like jazz because it seems like a genre with the value of each of those things is in balance. It turns out we don’t disagree at all then. I guess psu’s main problem is that some of the people he knows are better at every one of his own talents. That would be annoying. Like he should just taking up knitting and not tell anybody.

I can’t speak to coding, but, unlike athletics, music and art are more a question of vision, style, and technique than talent and ability. Take folk music for example, which is hardly a measure of who strums the best or writes the most cliché lyric about heartbreak. So maybe I’m hanging out in a safer arena that’s more about expression than excellence. I like jazz because it seems like a genre with the value of each of those things is in balance.

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By: Ben http://tleaves.com/2010/01/27/other-peoples-talents/comment-page-1/#comment-6435 Ben Fri, 05 Feb 2010 22:29:10 +0000 http://tleaves.com/?p=2385#comment-6435 r. you sound like you are far too close to Malcom Gladwell's 10,000 hour theory in Outliers http://www.gladwell.com/outliers/index.html r. you sound like you are far too close to Malcom Gladwell’s 10,000 hour theory in Outliers http://www.gladwell.com/outliers/index.html

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By: r. http://tleaves.com/2010/01/27/other-peoples-talents/comment-page-1/#comment-6434 r. Fri, 05 Feb 2010 20:42:20 +0000 http://tleaves.com/?p=2385#comment-6434 Sure, you have a good point boze. I guess my perspective now is that not everything should be attributed to innate ability. Maybe a helping of innate ability, and a equal helping of hard work. I agree that there are probably a lot of people who can kick your ass on a bike w/ only a quarter of the training. But to be the best or near the best at something, you have to put in some effort, even for those people. There are still going to be people that can do better because they are equivalently innately abled, and put in more work, no? I.e., the amount of effort you inject is really the only thing you have control over, so you might as well make the most of that dimension. Oh and I guess you have some control over which domain you want to play in. I think the argument I short circuited earlier is that if you only believe in talent as an innate ability then you'll give up before you ever realize it, because even if you're hugely talented, you're still going to suck at the beginning. Which is maybe why so many of us just give up on trying more difficult/creative endeavours and watch TV, which everyone can be the best at. The other thing I took away from the Tharp book (and I didn't agree with everything in it either), is that by applying a shitton of practice at something, you will be in a better position to actually act on your talent when the time presents itself. The typical example for me is photography- I can think I have a good eye all I want, and some innate ability to see things better than everyone else. But if I don't put the work in to learn the rest of the craft, the tools et cetera, then when an opportunity presents itself I won't be able to take advantage of it to realize my vision (mechanically setting up correct exposure or whatever). Granted you could say that if you were a genius at something, then things like exposure don't matter and the effect is intended.... Sure, you have a good point boze. I guess my perspective now is that not everything should be attributed to innate ability. Maybe a helping of innate ability, and a equal helping of hard work.

I agree that there are probably a lot of people who can kick your ass on a bike w/ only a quarter of the training. But to be the best or near the best at something, you have to put in some effort, even for those people. There are still going to be people that can do better because they are equivalently innately abled, and put in more work, no? I.e., the amount of effort you inject is really the only thing you have control over, so you might as well make the most of that dimension. Oh and I guess you have some control over which domain you want to play in.

I think the argument I short circuited earlier is that if you only believe in talent as an innate ability then you’ll give up before you ever realize it, because even if you’re hugely talented, you’re still going to suck at the beginning. Which is maybe why so many of us just give up on trying more difficult/creative endeavours and watch TV, which everyone can be the best at.

The other thing I took away from the Tharp book (and I didn’t agree with everything in it either), is that by applying a shitton of practice at something, you will be in a better position to actually act on your talent when the time presents itself. The typical example for me is photography- I can think I have a good eye all I want, and some innate ability to see things better than everyone else. But if I don’t put the work in to learn the rest of the craft, the tools et cetera, then when an opportunity presents itself I won’t be able to take advantage of it to realize my vision (mechanically setting up correct exposure or whatever). Granted you could say that if you were a genius at something, then things like exposure don’t matter and the effect is intended….

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By: boze http://tleaves.com/2010/01/27/other-peoples-talents/comment-page-1/#comment-6433 boze Fri, 05 Feb 2010 04:46:37 +0000 http://tleaves.com/?p=2385#comment-6433 I'm friends with r. and I haven't read Tharp's book, but I take issue with this idea that talent is just glorified reps. Some musicians can't develop the same technique in terms of rhythm or feel no matter how much they practice or who they study with. Other folks just can't get the knack for improv. Some people don't end up finding all that much success as even recreational musicians no matter what they do. Even the folks in my own jazz combo cut in various ways along these lines. Abilities like this vary across all disciplines. Having the most reps and the best work ethic yields rewards in some areas, but there are different abilities, different strengths and weaknesses, different hands we're all dealt. I must be misunderstanding something - I'm shocked that there is any serious consideration given to "hard work" as some uber trump card. Certainly hard work is required to be "the best you can be", but everyone has limiters. I'm the same height and weight as J.J. Redick and Usain Bolt. Would Tharp maintain that any of us could have been the fastest man ever to have lived? I have a friend who kicks my ass on the bike while not putting in a quarter of the training time I do. He's just faster than me. Can't play guitar worth a damn, either. Doing things that are meaningful and rewarding, making a difference, celebrating and leveraging your strengths while exploring and undergirding your weaknesses - that's your charge no matter what you're good at or what you enjoy. But don't tell me there's no such thing as talent. Talent is all around us and appreciating talent, beauty, and elegance helps us stay open to possibilities in our own lives for growth and development. I’m friends with r. and I haven’t read Tharp’s book, but I take issue with this idea that talent is just glorified reps.

Some musicians can’t develop the same technique in terms of rhythm or feel no matter how much they practice or who they study with. Other folks just can’t get the knack for improv. Some people don’t end up finding all that much success as even recreational musicians no matter what they do. Even the folks in my own jazz combo cut in various ways along these lines.

Abilities like this vary across all disciplines. Having the most reps and the best work ethic yields rewards in some areas, but there are different abilities, different strengths and weaknesses, different hands we’re all dealt. I must be misunderstanding something – I’m shocked that there is any serious consideration given to “hard work” as some uber trump card. Certainly hard work is required to be “the best you can be”, but everyone has limiters.

I’m the same height and weight as J.J. Redick and Usain Bolt. Would Tharp maintain that any of us could have been the fastest man ever to have lived? I have a friend who kicks my ass on the bike while not putting in a quarter of the training time I do. He’s just faster than me. Can’t play guitar worth a damn, either.

Doing things that are meaningful and rewarding, making a difference, celebrating and leveraging your strengths while exploring and undergirding your weaknesses – that’s your charge no matter what you’re good at or what you enjoy. But don’t tell me there’s no such thing as talent. Talent is all around us and appreciating talent, beauty, and elegance helps us stay open to possibilities in our own lives for growth and development.

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By: psu http://tleaves.com/2010/01/27/other-peoples-talents/comment-page-1/#comment-6431 psu Thu, 04 Feb 2010 20:57:04 +0000 http://tleaves.com/?p=2385#comment-6431 I would think that there must be cases of people who work equally hard at something for an equal amount of time and one guy comes out the other end just better at it. I think it's true that we don't want to overestimate the magical importance of talent, but we don't want to underestimate it either. I would think that there must be cases of people who work equally hard at something for an equal amount of time and one guy comes out the other end just better at it. I think it’s true that we don’t want to overestimate the magical importance of talent, but we don’t want to underestimate it either.

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By: r. http://tleaves.com/2010/01/27/other-peoples-talents/comment-page-1/#comment-6430 r. Thu, 04 Feb 2010 19:59:11 +0000 http://tleaves.com/?p=2385#comment-6430 I'd recommend reading Twyla Tharp's 'The Creative Habit', which addresses a lot of what you are saying here if you can get past the dance-specific stuff. The gist of it is that what we currently think of as talent boils down to having the interest and drive to practice long enough to have the accumulated experience to make it seem like you have talent. Kind of circular I know, but that is what you get from our current crazy definition of the word, where we prize an imagined innate ability when we see it in others because it lets us off the hook for being lazy ourselves. Also I'd agree with David. Aside from nitpicky mechanical stuff that an editor could fix, I enjoy reading what you post here which in my books makes you a good writer. I’d recommend reading Twyla Tharp’s ‘The Creative Habit’, which addresses a lot of what you are saying here if you can get past the dance-specific stuff.

The gist of it is that what we currently think of as talent boils down to having the interest and drive to practice long enough to have the accumulated experience to make it seem like you have talent. Kind of circular I know, but that is what you get from our current crazy definition of the word, where we prize an imagined innate ability when we see it in others because it lets us off the hook for being lazy ourselves.

Also I’d agree with David. Aside from nitpicky mechanical stuff that an editor could fix, I enjoy reading what you post here which in my books makes you a good writer.

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By: psu http://tleaves.com/2010/01/27/other-peoples-talents/comment-page-1/#comment-6426 psu Thu, 04 Feb 2010 14:23:48 +0000 http://tleaves.com/?p=2385#comment-6426 I clearly have to look at the incoming comments more often. Sorry about the delay folks. I clearly have to look at the incoming comments more often. Sorry about the delay folks.

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By: David Weld http://tleaves.com/2010/01/27/other-peoples-talents/comment-page-1/#comment-6422 David Weld Wed, 03 Feb 2010 16:10:48 +0000 http://tleaves.com/?p=2385#comment-6422 You're a good writer. That's much less common than you might think. You’re a good writer. That’s much less common than you might think.

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By: Stewart Clamen http://tleaves.com/2010/01/27/other-peoples-talents/comment-page-1/#comment-6417 Stewart Clamen Fri, 29 Jan 2010 20:11:06 +0000 http://tleaves.com/?p=2385#comment-6417 At the risk of starting a tangential argument, go read Gladwell's _Outliers_ At the risk of starting a tangential argument, go read Gladwell’s _Outliers_

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