Comments on: Slow Food vs. Naked Lunch http://tleaves.com/2010/04/12/slow-food-vs-naked-lunch/ Creativity x Technology Sat, 17 Mar 2012 05:09:58 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: psu http://tleaves.com/2010/04/12/slow-food-vs-naked-lunch/comment-page-1/#comment-6651 psu Wed, 14 Apr 2010 10:43:30 +0000 http://tleaves.com/?p=2417#comment-6651 Slow food meets Jewish deli http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/14/dining/14deli.html?hpw=&pagewanted=all Slow food meets Jewish deli

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/14/dining/14deli.html?hpw=&pagewanted=all

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By: psu http://tleaves.com/2010/04/12/slow-food-vs-naked-lunch/comment-page-1/#comment-6645 psu Tue, 13 Apr 2010 20:08:08 +0000 http://tleaves.com/?p=2417#comment-6645 Obviously no one can definitively define "crap" for someone else, since ultimately all food experiences are at least somewhat subjective. I think the best I've done on this web site to talk abotu this issue is this post http://tleaves.com/2005/12/28/the-real-thing/ But, all that said, people can and do develop strong bonds to processed foods (mac and cheese!). There is no accounting for human psychology. Speaking of chicken and mushroom soup. One of my college staples was chicken cooked on top of rice soaked in cream of chicken, mushroom and some other soup. Not very much to be proud of. But once I was in a fancy Italian restaurant, and I swear to you that the risotto tasted exactly like this concoction. What does this mean? I have no idea. Obviously no one can definitively define “crap” for someone else, since ultimately all food experiences are at least somewhat subjective.

I think the best I’ve done on this web site to talk abotu this issue is this post

http://tleaves.com/2005/12/28/the-real-thing/

But, all that said, people can and do develop strong bonds to processed foods (mac and cheese!). There is no accounting for human psychology.

Speaking of chicken and mushroom soup. One of my college staples was chicken cooked on top of rice soaked in cream of chicken, mushroom and some other soup. Not very much to be proud of.

But once I was in a fancy Italian restaurant, and I swear to you that the risotto tasted exactly like this concoction. What does this mean? I have no idea.

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By: ErinK http://tleaves.com/2010/04/12/slow-food-vs-naked-lunch/comment-page-1/#comment-6644 ErinK Tue, 13 Apr 2010 18:02:14 +0000 http://tleaves.com/?p=2417#comment-6644 So what makes food crap? Can't you achieve some of the Slow Food "goals" of careful preparation and human interaction in a community even if you're cooking factory-farmed chicken with processed cream of mushroom soup? By the way, every time I read that "Slow Food manifesto" I want to puke. It sounds so insufferably arrogant. Too bad I'll be missing good food, but these people are obviously not my tribe. So what makes food crap?

Can’t you achieve some of the Slow Food “goals” of careful preparation and human interaction in a community even if you’re cooking factory-farmed chicken with processed cream of mushroom soup?

By the way, every time I read that “Slow Food manifesto” I want to puke. It sounds so insufferably arrogant. Too bad I’ll be missing good food, but these people are obviously not my tribe.

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By: peterb http://tleaves.com/2010/04/12/slow-food-vs-naked-lunch/comment-page-1/#comment-6641 peterb Tue, 13 Apr 2010 14:09:48 +0000 http://tleaves.com/?p=2417#comment-6641 I think we have to be careful to not buy into a false dichotomy here. "Crap" doesn't mean "has flavor" or "high in fat" or the things you guys are inferring. "Crap" means "crap." I think I've only been to maybe one Slow Food event where every other meal wasn't constructed around bacon, for example. Some American eaters - NOT the Slow Food people, which may be the only nice thing I'll say about them here - seem to believe the choices are "crappy bacon cheeseburger" or "flavorless vegan raw salad." If those were the only choices, then I, too, would come down on the side of the crappy bacon cheeseburger every time. There are, however, many other choices, many of which are just as instantly delicious as the crappy bacon cheeseburger. To take just one example, you can get a <em>really good</em> bacon cheeseburger. Or a homemade lasagna. Or a dosa (note to Southern Indians: I know you won't go for it, but a chorizo dosa would make the world a better place). I do agree with Erin's point that a storebought cheeseburger provides gratification <em>for less effort</em>. I submit that "time to prepare" is part of the cost of the food, because for many p eople in a very real way it translates directly into dollars. I think we have to be careful to not buy into a false dichotomy here. “Crap” doesn’t mean “has flavor” or “high in fat” or the things you guys are inferring. “Crap” means “crap.” I think I’ve only been to maybe one Slow Food event where every other meal wasn’t constructed around bacon, for example.

Some American eaters – NOT the Slow Food people, which may be the only nice thing I’ll say about them here – seem to believe the choices are “crappy bacon cheeseburger” or “flavorless vegan raw salad.” If those were the only choices, then I, too, would come down on the side of the crappy bacon cheeseburger every time. There are, however, many other choices, many of which are just as instantly delicious as the crappy bacon cheeseburger. To take just one example, you can get a really good bacon cheeseburger. Or a homemade lasagna. Or a dosa (note to Southern Indians: I know you won’t go for it, but a chorizo dosa would make the world a better place).

I do agree with Erin’s point that a storebought cheeseburger provides gratification for less effort. I submit that “time to prepare” is part of the cost of the food, because for many p eople in a very real way it translates directly into dollars.

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By: carrie http://tleaves.com/2010/04/12/slow-food-vs-naked-lunch/comment-page-1/#comment-6640 carrie Tue, 13 Apr 2010 13:26:05 +0000 http://tleaves.com/?p=2417#comment-6640 well said. you are absolutely dead on about the impact of agricultural policies and the ways that poverty affects food choices. slow food is generally a lovely idea, and it is often effective as it is practiced elsewhere. i think partially we just suck at it. first, its emphasis on regional cuisine is just not possible everywhere. in areas with a variety of microclimates and/or long or double growing seasons (california, texas, florida, etc), where many things can grow and small growers can do well economically, it can work great. but in areas where growing seasons are short or only so many things grow well, it totally falls apart. there's not enough arable land, not enough growers, and frequently not enough space in the market to support such growers. these growers can't flourish without people willing and able to pay a premium, at least at first, for what they do. i've recently been part of several discussions in various online fora sparked by oliver's rather dumbed-down and obnoxious US version of food revolution, and people from wealthy and/or fertile areas of the country, especially from the bay area, have consistently been shocked and appalled, appalled and shocked, i say, at the cost of produce in less wildly productive areas. they keep saying, but i can make a delicious, healthy meal full of fresh, local produce for like $5! and people in iowa or chicago are like, lucky you - i pay that much for one red bell pepper, an onion, an apple, and a bag of rice, all grown conventionally, and don't even effing talk to me about what i pay for organics. what's interesting is that the former folks often simply said they didn't believe folks from the latter group - even when ten people were saying the same thing. they just couldn't accept that the way things are where they live is not The Way Things Are. also, in the US, there's not enough damn tradition! this is not italy or france, where one family has produced incredible hand-cured prosciutto for 25 generations or one cave has been used to age a very particular kind of cheese for 400 years. here, we killed off our continent's traditional culture (and inhabitants) and replaced it with corporate culture intended to produce a lifestyle with which largely european immigrants were comfortable and familiar. a hundred years ago, it was the sears and roebuck catalog; now it's wal-mart for the poor and whole foods for the rich. furthermore, that corporate culture has rarely been a good steward of regional resources. the most vivid example of this from my own life was a few years ago, when i traveled from texas to visit a friend in baltimore and we went out for blue crabs, a regional specialty - only to discover that the crabs had been shipped there from the texas gulf coast because the nearby chesapeake bay's ecosystem was disrupted to the point that they weren't crabbing that year. :/ so i traveled 1,600 miles to eat crabs pulled from the ocean less than 300 miles from my house. of course i think we could do better, but it would take a pretty significant political movement to do so. there are billions of dollars and the balance of power in congress at stake, and the folks holding both have shown that they are pretty determined to hang onto them. well said. you are absolutely dead on about the impact of agricultural policies and the ways that poverty affects food choices.

slow food is generally a lovely idea, and it is often effective as it is practiced elsewhere. i think partially we just suck at it.

first, its emphasis on regional cuisine is just not possible everywhere. in areas with a variety of microclimates and/or long or double growing seasons (california, texas, florida, etc), where many things can grow and small growers can do well economically, it can work great. but in areas where growing seasons are short or only so many things grow well, it totally falls apart. there’s not enough arable land, not enough growers, and frequently not enough space in the market to support such growers. these growers can’t flourish without people willing and able to pay a premium, at least at first, for what they do.

i’ve recently been part of several discussions in various online fora sparked by oliver’s rather dumbed-down and obnoxious US version of food revolution, and people from wealthy and/or fertile areas of the country, especially from the bay area, have consistently been shocked and appalled, appalled and shocked, i say, at the cost of produce in less wildly productive areas. they keep saying, but i can make a delicious, healthy meal full of fresh, local produce for like $5! and people in iowa or chicago are like, lucky you – i pay that much for one red bell pepper, an onion, an apple, and a bag of rice, all grown conventionally, and don’t even effing talk to me about what i pay for organics. what’s interesting is that the former folks often simply said they didn’t believe folks from the latter group – even when ten people were saying the same thing. they just couldn’t accept that the way things are where they live is not The Way Things Are.

also, in the US, there’s not enough damn tradition! this is not italy or france, where one family has produced incredible hand-cured prosciutto for 25 generations or one cave has been used to age a very particular kind of cheese for 400 years. here, we killed off our continent’s traditional culture (and inhabitants) and replaced it with corporate culture intended to produce a lifestyle with which largely european immigrants were comfortable and familiar. a hundred years ago, it was the sears and roebuck catalog; now it’s wal-mart for the poor and whole foods for the rich.

furthermore, that corporate culture has rarely been a good steward of regional resources. the most vivid example of this from my own life was a few years ago, when i traveled from texas to visit a friend in baltimore and we went out for blue crabs, a regional specialty – only to discover that the crabs had been shipped there from the texas gulf coast because the nearby chesapeake bay’s ecosystem was disrupted to the point that they weren’t crabbing that year. :/ so i traveled 1,600 miles to eat crabs pulled from the ocean less than 300 miles from my house.

of course i think we could do better, but it would take a pretty significant political movement to do so. there are billions of dollars and the balance of power in congress at stake, and the folks holding both have shown that they are pretty determined to hang onto them.

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By: Ian http://tleaves.com/2010/04/12/slow-food-vs-naked-lunch/comment-page-1/#comment-6639 Ian Tue, 13 Apr 2010 13:05:50 +0000 http://tleaves.com/?p=2417#comment-6639 I agree with what ErinK says above... If I weren't concerned about my weight/physical fitness (in other words, if I were willing to be fat, or lucky enough to be one of those people who can eat anything and still be skinny) there's pretty much never going to be a time when I'd choose a salad over a bacon cheeseburger. I even consider myself to be a lover of salads; I just love bacon cheeseburgers more. The thing that I've found is that even with money completely out of the equation, eating right is hard, and doesn't come naturally to many Americans, myself included. Maybe I was brainwashed as a kid, but fatty foods taste good instantly. Many processed foods taste good instantly. (Oreos are my big processed food weakness.) Appreciating a good salad not only takes the time to create the good salad in the first place, but also the time and impetus to learn to enjoy it. As stupid as the concept of taxes on sugary drinks is to me, I see the logic in it -- people aren't intrinsically incentivized to seek out healthy foods. They generally find good food through peer pressure, or at the behest of their doctor. As I type that, I think of Scotch. If you gave a 10 year old a sip of Scotch, even the BEST Scotch, I bet 99.9% of them will react with a, "BLECH!" It's something you "learn" to enjoy. Presumably you get introduced to alcohol for it's primary side effect, but many folks go on to become aficionados. If you never have an impetus to learn to appreciate healthier foods, it seems unlikely that you're going to spontaneously learn on your own. I agree with what ErinK says above… If I weren’t concerned about my weight/physical fitness (in other words, if I were willing to be fat, or lucky enough to be one of those people who can eat anything and still be skinny) there’s pretty much never going to be a time when I’d choose a salad over a bacon cheeseburger. I even consider myself to be a lover of salads; I just love bacon cheeseburgers more.

The thing that I’ve found is that even with money completely out of the equation, eating right is hard, and doesn’t come naturally to many Americans, myself included. Maybe I was brainwashed as a kid, but fatty foods taste good instantly. Many processed foods taste good instantly. (Oreos are my big processed food weakness.) Appreciating a good salad not only takes the time to create the good salad in the first place, but also the time and impetus to learn to enjoy it. As stupid as the concept of taxes on sugary drinks is to me, I see the logic in it — people aren’t intrinsically incentivized to seek out healthy foods. They generally find good food through peer pressure, or at the behest of their doctor.

As I type that, I think of Scotch. If you gave a 10 year old a sip of Scotch, even the BEST Scotch, I bet 99.9% of them will react with a, “BLECH!” It’s something you “learn” to enjoy. Presumably you get introduced to alcohol for it’s primary side effect, but many folks go on to become aficionados. If you never have an impetus to learn to appreciate healthier foods, it seems unlikely that you’re going to spontaneously learn on your own.

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By: ErinK http://tleaves.com/2010/04/12/slow-food-vs-naked-lunch/comment-page-1/#comment-6637 ErinK Tue, 13 Apr 2010 04:06:09 +0000 http://tleaves.com/?p=2417#comment-6637 Slow Food lost me when the newspaper article I was reading on it diverged into a discussion of why some members thought you shouldn't vaccinate your kids. But still, I don't think price is really the main factor in whether people raise their families on crap food. Junk food is delicious! The main reason _I_ don't eat it all the time is because that's unacceptable in my upper-middle class white intellectual American subculture. If your peers don't see anything wrong with it, and it's what your parents did, you're not going to be very motivated to change. It's a lot of work to cook other foods, and it's tough to make a salad that beats a bacon cheeseburger for instant gratification (even if you have been exposed to subtle flavors, which some people just haven't). It will take more than making high-quality fresh food more accessible to get average Americans interested in this kind of food revolution. Slow Food lost me when the newspaper article I was reading on it diverged into a discussion of why some members thought you shouldn’t vaccinate your kids.

But still, I don’t think price is really the main factor in whether people raise their families on crap food. Junk food is delicious! The main reason _I_ don’t eat it all the time is because that’s unacceptable in my upper-middle class white intellectual American subculture. If your peers don’t see anything wrong with it, and it’s what your parents did, you’re not going to be very motivated to change. It’s a lot of work to cook other foods, and it’s tough to make a salad that beats a bacon cheeseburger for instant gratification (even if you have been exposed to subtle flavors, which some people just haven’t).

It will take more than making high-quality fresh food more accessible to get average Americans interested in this kind of food revolution.

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