Comments on: Are You Experienced? http://tleaves.com/2004/06/14/are-you-experienced/ Creativity x Technology Sat, 17 Mar 2012 05:09:58 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Arandor http://tleaves.com/2004/06/14/are-you-experienced/comment-page-1/#comment-384 Arandor Fri, 24 Mar 2006 08:31:27 +0000 http://tleaves.com/?p=120#comment-384 Anyone else remember Fallout 1? In that game you could talk to final boss out of conquering the world. Not that it was really practical to spend NO effort on combat skills, but for all the really important parts, persuasion was a valid alternative. The main problem I had with Morrowind's system was that I felt it turned into a major grind-fest. Advancing in the story didn't really give out rewards - a few pieces of equipment, but Morrowind's enchanting system was so broken that if (like me on my first attempt) you let your inner min/maxer loose, you'll end up invincible way too fast. That's why I argue for story-based advancement, a la Black Isle (Fallout 1&2, Planescape). Another system I've seen used is for the boss battles to give way more experience than standard battles, which solves the two main balance issues I see throughout CRPGs - the need to grind through monsters to get powerful enough to advance in the story, and the ability to grind so many monsters that the story loses any challenge. Because, at least for me, the story of a game is almost always more interesting than fighting random monsters. My favorite games are the ones where you more or less progress from puzzle to boss battle to city to puzzle without ever really noticing the random encounters (if any). Anyone else remember Fallout 1? In that game you could talk to final boss out of conquering the world. Not that it was really practical to spend NO effort on combat skills, but for all the really important parts, persuasion was a valid alternative.

The main problem I had with Morrowind’s system was that I felt it turned into a major grind-fest. Advancing in the story didn’t really give out rewards – a few pieces of equipment, but Morrowind’s enchanting system was so broken that if (like me on my first attempt) you let your inner min/maxer loose, you’ll end up invincible way too fast. That’s why I argue for story-based advancement, a la Black Isle (Fallout 1&2, Planescape). Another system I’ve seen used is for the boss battles to give way more experience than standard battles, which solves the two main balance issues I see throughout CRPGs – the need to grind through monsters to get powerful enough to advance in the story, and the ability to grind so many monsters that the story loses any challenge. Because, at least for me, the story of a game is almost always more interesting than fighting random monsters. My favorite games are the ones where you more or less progress from puzzle to boss battle to city to puzzle without ever really noticing the random encounters (if any).

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By: goffers http://tleaves.com/2004/06/14/are-you-experienced/comment-page-1/#comment-383 goffers Thu, 02 Mar 2006 00:06:57 +0000 http://tleaves.com/?p=120#comment-383 You see, this is why I enjoy paper and pencil (PnP) RPGs more than CRPGs. In PnP RPGs the DM gets to ascribe whatever xp he/she feels appropriate to whatever solution the players come up with in an adventure. Well planned adventures can involve true role-playing with powerful nuanced ethical dilemmas, choices that matter and no save button to explore the consequences of each option. True, most RPGs favor combat, but then most people favor combat in a make-believe world. Its exciting and not something you get to do in the real world. But certain RP systems require less of it and favor ambiance and narrative. Of course it takes a fair amount of maturity to handle such games. I am currently teaching some boys (ages 8-11) how to play D&D and I can see how they have been totally corrupted by MMORPGs. They see their characters only in terms of levels and points, and see everything in terms of combat. One wants to play a dark elf "necro-knight" (I still have to figure out what that is), another a paladin, another a good elven "red dragon deciple". They of course have no notion that it might be difficult to imagine such characters adventuring together. I need to explain to them that PnP RPGs invovle a story that makes sense and that monsters don't just hang around in well-distributed bunches waiting to be slaughtered by anonymous cool-looking heroes. Characters don't just "hook-up" for some casual monster bashing. But at the same time I don't want to crush their dreams about their characters. These kids aren't exactly the coolest of the cool--more like young Napoleon Dynamites (sort of like me and my friends at that age). Anyway, I think that levelling appeals to our inner baboon. Its like a form of abstracted dominance hierarchy. Level 3 is more powerful than level 2. But throughout our society are analogues such as pay grades in jobs, grade levels in school, getting a diploma, BA, MA or PhD. There is certainly a "DING" experience associate with these (grad ceremonies). But just like in RPGs the requirements in life to "level" are pretty arbitrary but the benefits ascribed to each "level" such as increases in pay, or better job opportunities etc are very real. Of course a lot of people refer to all this as the "rat race", which we somehow managed to simplify in computer form for CRPGs for those who find the larger games of our society too stressful. So unless you want to be Thoreau you are stuck with a clunky system that favors min-maxing munchkins, twinkers, and DM girlfriends. Here's to building a better system! You see, this is why I enjoy paper and pencil (PnP) RPGs more than CRPGs. In PnP RPGs the DM gets to ascribe whatever xp he/she feels appropriate to whatever solution the players come up with in an adventure. Well planned adventures can involve true role-playing with powerful nuanced ethical dilemmas, choices that matter and no save button to explore the consequences of each option. True, most RPGs favor combat, but then most people favor combat in a make-believe world. Its exciting and not something you get to do in the real world. But certain RP systems require less of it and favor ambiance and narrative. Of course it takes a fair amount of maturity to handle such games.

I am currently teaching some boys (ages 8-11) how to play D&D and I can see how they have been totally corrupted by MMORPGs. They see their characters only in terms of levels and points, and see everything in terms of combat. One wants to play a dark elf “necro-knight” (I still have to figure out what that is), another a paladin, another a good elven “red dragon deciple”. They of course have no notion that it might be difficult to imagine such characters adventuring together. I need to explain to them that PnP RPGs invovle a story that makes sense and that monsters don’t just hang around in well-distributed bunches waiting to be slaughtered by anonymous cool-looking heroes. Characters don’t just “hook-up” for some casual monster bashing. But at the same time I don’t want to crush their dreams about their characters. These kids aren’t exactly the coolest of the cool–more like young Napoleon Dynamites (sort of like me and my friends at that age).

Anyway, I think that levelling appeals to our inner baboon. Its like a form of abstracted dominance hierarchy. Level 3 is more powerful than level 2. But throughout our society are analogues such as pay grades in jobs, grade levels in school, getting a diploma, BA, MA or PhD. There is certainly a “DING” experience associate with these (grad ceremonies). But just like in RPGs the requirements in life to “level” are pretty arbitrary but the benefits ascribed to each “level” such as increases in pay, or better job opportunities etc are very real. Of course a lot of people refer to all this as the “rat race”, which we somehow managed to simplify in computer form for CRPGs for those who find the larger games of our society too stressful. So unless you want to be Thoreau you are stuck with a clunky system that favors min-maxing munchkins, twinkers, and DM girlfriends. Here’s to building a better system!

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By: Richard http://tleaves.com/2004/06/14/are-you-experienced/comment-page-1/#comment-382 Richard Sat, 11 Feb 2006 14:38:06 +0000 http://tleaves.com/?p=120#comment-382 I liked Morrowind's skill development style the best. It's perfect in the sense that a character can only get good at what he actually does. The obvious flaw, as you mentioned, is when the need for combat arises. But isn't that more of a fault in the world design? Why do you -have- to fight to save the day? If your character was purely about charisma and people-skills, why can't he use those skills to save the day? For example: He would be great at buying cheap then selling expensive, raking in tons of cash. He could splash it on the best armour and weapons which will cover his lack in strength. He could buy training, books to teach him. But why not also have the option to pay others to do the fight for him? He'd be able to convince them with his brilliant wordplay and get a reasonable price to pay for their services. Heck, why couldn't he target some of the main bad guy's henchman and 'talk them over' into rebelling against their master? That's what RPGs need, I think! Options for every type of character! I liked Morrowind’s skill development style the best. It’s perfect in the sense that a character can only get good at what he actually does. The obvious flaw, as you mentioned, is when the need for combat arises. But isn’t that more of a fault in the world design? Why do you -have- to fight to save the day? If your character was purely about charisma and people-skills, why can’t he use those skills to save the day? For example: He would be great at buying cheap then selling expensive, raking in tons of cash. He could splash it on the best armour and weapons which will cover his lack in strength. He could buy training, books to teach him. But why not also have the option to pay others to do the fight for him? He’d be able to convince them with his brilliant wordplay and get a reasonable price to pay for their services. Heck, why couldn’t he target some of the main bad guy’s henchman and ‘talk them over’ into rebelling against their master? That’s what RPGs need, I think! Options for every type of character!

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By: Reddan http://tleaves.com/2004/06/14/are-you-experienced/comment-page-1/#comment-381 Reddan Sat, 05 Nov 2005 20:04:35 +0000 http://tleaves.com/?p=120#comment-381 this article has perfectly displayed my feelings on the RPG. I wonder, does anybody know a skill based system for Dungeons and Dragons or is this just a pointless rant? this article has perfectly displayed my feelings on the RPG.
I wonder, does anybody know a skill based system for Dungeons and Dragons or is this just a pointless rant?

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By: peterb http://tleaves.com/2004/06/14/are-you-experienced/comment-page-1/#comment-380 peterb Wed, 23 Jun 2004 21:08:11 +0000 http://tleaves.com/?p=120#comment-380 Wow, that last URL is brilliant, even if I disagree with him about the importance of narrative to games. Wow, that last URL is brilliant, even if I disagree with him about the importance of narrative to games.

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By: Jon Ferro http://tleaves.com/2004/06/14/are-you-experienced/comment-page-1/#comment-379 Jon Ferro Wed, 23 Jun 2004 20:57:19 +0000 http://tleaves.com/?p=120#comment-379 In lieu of the larger comment I am still writing that will directly address single-player CRPGs, here are some relevant links from the world of MMORPGs, via slashdot: http://www.legendmud.org/raph/gaming/laws.html http://tinyurl.com/2r9c5 http://tinyurl.com/2anum It's amusing to try to figure out whether Puzzle Pirates is an example for or against each of the arguments being debated. In lieu of the larger comment I am still writing that will directly address single-player CRPGs, here are some relevant links from the world of MMORPGs, via slashdot:

http://www.legendmud.org/raph/gaming/laws.html
http://tinyurl.com/2r9c5
http://tinyurl.com/2anum

It’s amusing to try to figure out whether Puzzle Pirates is an example for or against each of the arguments being debated.

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By: Eric Tilton http://tleaves.com/2004/06/14/are-you-experienced/comment-page-1/#comment-378 Eric Tilton Wed, 16 Jun 2004 18:29:45 +0000 http://tleaves.com/?p=120#comment-378 I hadn't realized Witch's Wake had the structure; I'll have to go grab it. Planescape: Torment was like this as well. You did get XP from combat, but you got substantially more XP from unearthing memories that had been hidden, so the combat XP was pretty much meaningless. I hadn’t realized Witch’s Wake had the structure; I’ll have to go grab it.

Planescape: Torment was like this as well. You did get XP from combat, but you got substantially more XP from unearthing memories that had been hidden, so the combat XP was pretty much meaningless.

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