Comments on: Chasing the Dragon http://tleaves.com/2004/12/01/chasing-the-dragon/ Creativity x Technology Sat, 17 Mar 2012 05:09:58 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Faisal N. Jawdat http://tleaves.com/2004/12/01/chasing-the-dragon/comment-page-1/#comment-767 Faisal N. Jawdat Tue, 07 Dec 2004 16:19:56 +0000 http://tleaves.com/?p=249#comment-767 One of you gentlemen has been promising to "PWN" me for a while now and yet we have not been able to play online because your machine has been down pending a ram and/or video card upgrade for at least eight months now. Why is that? I don't play enough games for it to be because you're afraid of my mousing proficiency. Really, the text deconstructs itself almost as fast as the jokes write themselves. One of you gentlemen has been promising to “PWN” me for a while now and yet we have not been able to play online because your machine has been down pending a ram and/or video card upgrade for at least eight months now. Why is that? I don’t play enough games for it to be because you’re afraid of my mousing proficiency.

Really, the text deconstructs itself almost as fast as the jokes write themselves.

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By: Gary http://tleaves.com/2004/12/01/chasing-the-dragon/comment-page-1/#comment-766 Gary Mon, 06 Dec 2004 17:59:51 +0000 http://tleaves.com/?p=249#comment-766 "What upgrades did you do to your PC that you couldn't do on a standard Dell workstation?" Well perhaps I shouldn't use the words minor upgrade when I did replace the motherboard several times. I did say I'd replaced just about every part though. I really meant minor in the sense that each upgrade only involved a few parts upgrades. Being able to replace the motherboard though, I can upgrade 3 of the components (cpu, ram, and motherboard) at the same time while keeping the old stuff. Otherwise I'd have to replace everything else with a new pc (video card, hard drive, case, cd/dvd drives, etc). I also wouldn't say that I do it because it's fun at all, because it's not. I would say that their is a side benefit though. Whenever something goes wrong with the pc (ram, video card, etc) as any pc would after a certain amount of time I have the experience necessary to troubleshoot the problem instead of going through tech support hell or sending the pc in for repairs. In fact that experience helped get one of my first tech jobs. “What upgrades did you do to your PC that you couldn’t do on a standard Dell workstation?”

Well perhaps I shouldn’t use the words minor upgrade when I did replace the motherboard several times. I did say I’d replaced just about every part though. I really meant minor in the sense that each upgrade only involved a few parts upgrades.

Being able to replace the motherboard though, I can upgrade 3 of the components (cpu, ram, and motherboard) at the same time while keeping the old stuff. Otherwise I’d have to replace everything else with a new pc (video card, hard drive, case, cd/dvd drives, etc).

I also wouldn’t say that I do it because it’s fun at all, because it’s not.

I would say that their is a side benefit though. Whenever something goes wrong with the pc (ram, video card, etc) as any pc would after a certain amount of time I have the experience necessary to troubleshoot the problem instead of going through tech support hell or sending the pc in for repairs. In fact that experience helped get one of my first tech jobs.

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By: psu http://tleaves.com/2004/12/01/chasing-the-dragon/comment-page-1/#comment-765 psu Mon, 06 Dec 2004 14:36:04 +0000 http://tleaves.com/?p=249#comment-765 IMHO the last time building your own machine was fun and interesting was sometime back in the early 80s when you could build a little single board 6809 thing with a keypad and LED display and then write programs in machine code. These days, "building" a PC is about as enjoyable as rewiring my stereo, but at least when I rewire the stereo I know that the TV will still work when I'm done, which isn't really the case with the PC. I have no real sympathy for any of the alleged rationale behind building your own, and I especially don't really feel sorry for the linux people who say they only have limited hardware support. If I wanted Unix with limited hardware support, I'd buy a Mac. IMHO the last time building your own machine was fun and interesting was sometime back in the early 80s when you could build a little single board 6809 thing with a keypad and LED display and then write programs in machine code.

These days, “building” a PC is about as enjoyable as rewiring my stereo, but at least when I rewire the stereo I know that the TV will still work when I’m done, which isn’t really the case with the PC.

I have no real sympathy for any of the alleged rationale behind building your own, and I especially don’t really feel sorry for the linux people who say they only have limited hardware support. If I wanted Unix with limited hardware support, I’d buy a Mac.

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By: peterb http://tleaves.com/2004/12/01/chasing-the-dragon/comment-page-1/#comment-764 peterb Sat, 04 Dec 2004 00:14:27 +0000 http://tleaves.com/?p=249#comment-764 I don't buy the upgrade argument. I mean, sure, you can put in some more RAM, maybe, or add a SCSI card or what have you. But you can do that with most premanufactured machines, too. If you have a PC that is really 6 years old, here's what you can't do unless you replace the motherboard: -you can't use PCI Express. -you can't use 4x or 8x AGP, so whatever videocard you put in will be dog slow, comparatively speaking. -you can't put in a newer CPU that is substantially faster than whatever was in it in the first place -you can't use any of the newer, faster RAM. -you (probably) can't do Serial ATA. Now, that's all true of a Dell (or what have you) as well. For me to upgrade my home-built box (which is only 4 years old) to even approach the performance of what you can get today, I would need to replace just about every component, including the mainboard. So what's the point? What upgrades did you do to your PC that you couldn't do on a standard Dell workstation? I don’t buy the upgrade argument. I mean, sure, you can put in some more RAM, maybe, or add a SCSI card or what have you. But you can do that with most premanufactured machines, too.

If you have a PC that is really 6 years old, here’s what you can’t do unless you replace the motherboard:

-you can’t use PCI Express.
-you can’t use 4x or 8x AGP, so whatever videocard you put in will be dog slow, comparatively speaking.
-you can’t put in a newer CPU that is substantially faster than whatever was in it in the first place
-you can’t use any of the newer, faster RAM.
-you (probably) can’t do Serial ATA.

Now, that’s all true of a Dell (or what have you) as well. For me to upgrade my home-built box (which is only 4 years old) to even approach the performance of what you can get today, I would need to replace just about every component, including the mainboard. So what’s the point?

What upgrades did you do to your PC that you couldn’t do on a standard Dell workstation?

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By: Gary http://tleaves.com/2004/12/01/chasing-the-dragon/comment-page-1/#comment-763 Gary Fri, 03 Dec 2004 23:01:52 +0000 http://tleaves.com/?p=249#comment-763 Well I'm not sure if it the case any longer but often one of the problems with prebuilt machines is that you can't really upgrade them because they use customized motherboards. My current pc is actually still the same one I had 6 years ago, its just gone through lots and lots of minor upgrades over the years. I think I've replaced just about every part at least once since I first built it. I also totally agree with the cheapness argument that Dan mentioned. While I'll recommend Dell's to anyone who wants a computer, I wouldn't want to touch one for my own personal machine. That said, whenever I do build a computer for me or help someone else build one some problem inevitably arises that requires a bit of troubleshooting. In any case even if you buy a pc like a Dell you almost have to reformat and reinstall windows right away to get rid of all the extra junk they load on the system. Well I’m not sure if it the case any longer but often one of the problems with prebuilt machines is that you can’t really upgrade them because they use customized motherboards. My current pc is actually still the same one I had 6 years ago, its just gone through lots and lots of minor upgrades over the years. I think I’ve replaced just about every part at least once since I first built it.

I also totally agree with the cheapness argument that Dan mentioned. While I’ll recommend Dell’s to anyone who wants a computer, I wouldn’t want to touch one for my own personal machine. That said, whenever I do build a computer for me or help someone else build one some problem inevitably arises that requires a bit of troubleshooting.

In any case even if you buy a pc like a Dell you almost have to reformat and reinstall windows right away to get rid of all the extra junk they load on the system.

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By: Eric Tilton http://tleaves.com/2004/12/01/chasing-the-dragon/comment-page-1/#comment-762 Eric Tilton Fri, 03 Dec 2004 15:19:48 +0000 http://tleaves.com/?p=249#comment-762 Hahahahahahaha. I didn't overclock. I bought good parts. I got the supplier (who's well reputed in-town in the DIY community) to assemble CPU/memory/motherboard and stress test, which is a service they provide. And I've had nothing but crazy. The side of the case is still off the machine, since managing heat flow turns out to be a black art with these current joule-burners. I think we've passed over some sort of tetchiness threshhold in the past year, with stuff like dual channel memory and high speed CPUs having a lot less tolerance for variation then the casual DIYer is going to achieve. If you're building a nice disk server and don't care about crazy high CPU/GPU speeds, sure, build your own. But I'd also had "fairly decent luck" and figured this last time out would be no different, and then manged to short out my mobo and run up against all kinds of memory stick failures and heat distribution issues. And next time I'm paying someone else to run up against that. Hahahahahahaha.

I didn’t overclock. I bought good parts. I got the supplier (who’s well reputed in-town in the DIY community) to assemble CPU/memory/motherboard and stress test, which is a service they provide. And I’ve had nothing but crazy. The side of the case is still off the machine, since managing heat flow turns out to be a black art with these current joule-burners.

I think we’ve passed over some sort of tetchiness threshhold in the past year, with stuff like dual channel memory and high speed CPUs having a lot less tolerance for variation then the casual DIYer is going to achieve.

If you’re building a nice disk server and don’t care about crazy high CPU/GPU speeds, sure, build your own. But I’d also had “fairly decent luck” and figured this last time out would be no different, and then manged to short out my mobo and run up against all kinds of memory stick failures and heat distribution issues.

And next time I’m paying someone else to run up against that.

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By: Dan Martinez http://tleaves.com/2004/12/01/chasing-the-dragon/comment-page-1/#comment-761 Dan Martinez Fri, 03 Dec 2004 03:16:32 +0000 http://tleaves.com/?p=249#comment-761 I think there's a fourth reason not covered in your original list, and it's the one that motivates me. Warren Ellis, in the persona of Spider Jerusalem, summed up my feelings regarding hardware vendors perfectly: "I don't trust any of you dogfuckers." Every mass-produced PC I've ever seen exudes an air of pervasive cheapness. Every component was carefully hand-selected to do the bare minimum required so it would cost less. Sure, you can't blame the vendors -- with Dell and HP locked in a death struggle to see which one can out-bleed the other, every fraction of a penny counts -- but that doesn't mean that you have to like the result. (Most recent example: the Dell box I use at work came with an 800 MHz FSB CPU, but 333 MHz RAM, meaning that the CPU and RAM were perpetually out of sync. Replacing the cheap RAM with good stuff bumped up the memory throughput by 50%, which is not small potatoes in my book.) To buy a machine that I could actually feel *good* about, I'd have to go to an outfit like Alienware, and I *can* cobble together my own equivalently-performing box for less than they charge. I've had fairly decent luck with boxen I've built myself, but then I try to stick to known-good chipsets, and never, ever overclock. (I love to mock overclockers. And not with love. They're the cargo-culters of computing, and I enjoy their self-inflicted suffering the way some people enjoy fine wine.) I think there’s a fourth reason not covered in your original list, and it’s the one that motivates me. Warren Ellis, in the persona of Spider Jerusalem, summed up my feelings regarding hardware vendors perfectly: “I don’t trust any of you dogfuckers.”

Every mass-produced PC I’ve ever seen exudes an air of pervasive cheapness. Every component was carefully hand-selected to do the bare minimum required so it would cost less. Sure, you can’t blame the vendors — with Dell and HP locked in a death struggle to see which one can out-bleed the other, every fraction of a penny counts — but that doesn’t mean that you have to like the result. (Most recent example: the Dell box I use at work came with an 800 MHz FSB CPU, but 333 MHz RAM, meaning that the CPU and RAM were perpetually out of sync. Replacing the cheap RAM with good stuff bumped up the memory throughput by 50%, which is not small potatoes in my book.)

To buy a machine that I could actually feel *good* about, I’d have to go to an outfit like Alienware, and I *can* cobble together my own equivalently-performing box for less than they charge.

I’ve had fairly decent luck with boxen I’ve built myself, but then I try to stick to known-good chipsets, and never, ever overclock. (I love to mock overclockers. And not with love. They’re the cargo-culters of computing, and I enjoy their self-inflicted suffering the way some people enjoy fine wine.)

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By: Faisal N. Jawdat http://tleaves.com/2004/12/01/chasing-the-dragon/comment-page-1/#comment-760 Faisal N. Jawdat Thu, 02 Dec 2004 23:37:57 +0000 http://tleaves.com/?p=249#comment-760 My friend Jeremy watched The Big Lebowski, and it changed his life. I was not so ... fortunate? But one day I was listening to someone who normally raggedon me for how much more expensive a Mac is (my iBook cost at least $-200 more than his almost equivalent laptop, but at least he couldn't watch DVDs on his, and wasn't at risk of it weighing any less than 3 poinds more than mine), and this person was going on about how much time he spent dealing with the latest WinWorm and attempting to get his video card to run .0625% faster without setting fire to all of the Ukraine, and it came to me: "Your 'revolution' is over, Mr. Lebowski! Condolences! The bums lost! My advice is, do what your parents did! Get a Mac, sir! The bums will always lose-- do you hear me, Lebowski?" Now I'm going to replace the failed hard drive in my wife's PowerBook. When I escape, in 2 days, I'll be happy to tell you how much happier I'd have been the last few days if I'd had a Dell laptop, with drives mounted in the side of the case rather than buried behind the processor, 6 linear feet of concrete, a tesseract, and 4 armed guards who are annoyed at being trapped in a 5 lb laptop. With any luck I'll have the Legos unpacked by Christmas. My friend Jeremy watched The Big Lebowski, and it changed his life. I was not so … fortunate? But one day I was listening to someone who normally raggedon me for how much more expensive a Mac is (my iBook cost at least $-200 more than his almost equivalent laptop, but at least he couldn’t watch DVDs on his, and wasn’t at risk of it weighing any less than 3 poinds more than mine), and this person was going on about how much time he spent dealing with the latest WinWorm and attempting to get his video card to run .0625% faster without setting fire to all of the Ukraine, and it came to me:

“Your ‘revolution’ is over, Mr. Lebowski! Condolences! The bums lost! My advice is, do what your parents did! Get a Mac, sir! The bums will always lose– do you hear me, Lebowski?”

Now I’m going to replace the failed hard drive in my wife’s PowerBook. When I escape, in 2 days, I’ll be happy to tell you how much happier I’d have been the last few days if I’d had a Dell laptop, with drives mounted in the side of the case rather than buried behind the processor, 6 linear feet of concrete, a tesseract, and 4 armed guards who are annoyed at being trapped in a 5 lb laptop.

With any luck I’ll have the Legos unpacked by Christmas.

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By: Josh Myer http://tleaves.com/2004/12/01/chasing-the-dragon/comment-page-1/#comment-759 Josh Myer Thu, 02 Dec 2004 07:20:51 +0000 http://tleaves.com/?p=249#comment-759 One other reason to assemble it yourself: driver compatibility under Linux. We don't get vendor drivers quite the same way as everyone else, so we're stuck being very particular about hardware. That said, my latest PC is a Dell Inspiron 300m, which runs Linux passingly, and I couldn't be much happier =) One other reason to assemble it yourself: driver compatibility under Linux. We don’t get vendor drivers quite the same way as everyone else, so we’re stuck being very particular about hardware.

That said, my latest PC is a Dell Inspiron 300m, which runs Linux passingly, and I couldn’t be much happier =)

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By: Eric Tilton http://tleaves.com/2004/12/01/chasing-the-dragon/comment-page-1/#comment-758 Eric Tilton Thu, 02 Dec 2004 07:05:37 +0000 http://tleaves.com/?p=249#comment-758 The other interesting thing I learned in my descent into hell is that CPU speed actually matters much more than GPU brassiness. My "old" GeForce 4Ti pretty much runs at the same frame rates as my shiny Radeon 9800 Pro. More VRAM is obviously nicer, but a 128MB of VRAM seems like a reasonable sweet spot for current games. I think the only game the looked qualitatively better on the shinier card was Doom 3; even Half Life 2 wasn't noticeably nicer on the 9800 (in terms of visual quality). Happily, World of Warcraft runs great on my PowerBook, even on trips :). The other interesting thing I learned in my descent into hell is that CPU speed actually matters much more than GPU brassiness. My “old” GeForce 4Ti pretty much runs at the same frame rates as my shiny Radeon 9800 Pro. More VRAM is obviously nicer, but a 128MB of VRAM seems like a reasonable sweet spot for current games.

I think the only game the looked qualitatively better on the shinier card was Doom 3; even Half Life 2 wasn’t noticeably nicer on the 9800 (in terms of visual quality).

Happily, World of Warcraft runs great on my PowerBook, even on trips :) .

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