Comments on: It's 2005. X11 Still Sucks

By: John

John — Thu, 22 Dec 2005 16:15:55 +0000

X11 still has a number of problems, however I can see why people would opt for evolution over revolution. X11 is quite an extensable model, you can develop new extensions while supporting all the old stuff. Any round up re-write/re-design would take a significan time to get to the point X is at all ready. A number of projects have already tried to replace X with not much impact in the Linux world.

The main issue with evolution of X is getting apps to support the new way of doing things. Take Xemacs for example, so far Xemacs has not made much of an attempt to improve how it uses X. Thus it intergates badly with many new X apps. It’s effectivly like trying to run an App aimed at win3.1 on XP. Sure it don’t behave like an XP app but it does work.

By: Ale

Ale — Wed, 21 Dec 2005 19:11:33 +0000

My graphic card blew out the other day. Luckily I have another box with MacOS X beside it. Yes, it sucks, since I found this page looking for tips on how to do copy and paste

However, if MacOS had no X11 I would have to FTP twice for editing any file, or use vi in a telnet window… Which design is poorer?

By: Anonymous

Anonymous — Fri, 02 Dec 2005 21:57:53 +0000

My apologies. Please the rest of my comment with an open mind.
From my point of view Linux is not inteneded to be desktop replacement, though it can be used that way. It is first a server environment, meaning the function it of its design is to be a platform to provide services http, DB, FTP, file/print, etc… .
That people have tweaked/moddded the software so that it may be used as a desktop is great, but ( here it comes) IMHO that should not be looked upon from afar as utter failure. To the contrary it is a process of design growth and maturity.
On the other hand Windows was from the begining an end user interface for the desktop. Does this mean
that Linux does not need criticism to assist its growth in the desktop arena? No, objective criticism is neccessary to help nudge those developers who are to close to the technology and have developed a myopic view point.
In my previous post I was too direct and I see that now you feel that it was an ad homenin attack of sorts. That was really not my intent, but rather I am frustrated and tired of complaints against software that are misguided and in the end serve only to add fuel to fire. X was not intended to used in the current desktop role that it finds itself, I am speaking strictly in the sense relating to consumer use. X11 is way out of its role and it shows no doubt, but I think that saying it is a broken worthless piece of software is not going to add anything of value to the dialouge.
If you are a software engineer then I believe you already are aware of this and I sincerely hope that you and others would consider contributing in some way. Maybe that means you could offer suggestions leading to an entire new framework
that is designed and intended for the consumer type of end user, (the proverbial 95 year old grandmother ).
I certaintly am no “fanboy” of Linux though I am happy to have seen its use grow so far and wide. Even if that means it will be used in areas that may not be its forte so to speak.

Cheers.

By: Tony Montana

Tony Montana — Thu, 01 Dec 2005 18:08:20 +0000

It is a sad day when someone can not face the
facts with objectivity and at least make a honest
attempt to counter with passable arguments.

The linux-fanboy mentality is so funny to an
objective observer that it actually ceases to be
funny and becomes sad. I like to view the linux
fanboys as mynah birds covered with a huge black
veil. They try to mimick each other and through
their collective debate-travesties (slashdot is
a prime example) a massive form of brain washing
emerges. After a while, they are completely
incapable of debating said issues (linux, x11)
with a sane person without resorting to bigotry,
laughable arguments and juvenile insults.

The interesting part is that many Linux icons
(project leaders like Miguel de Icaza, founder
of GNOME) do not fare better than the slashdot
crowd. These are people who should be able to see
that X11 was, is and will be the bane of Linux.
Instead of innovating, they manipulate and bait
the fanboys with useless tricks in order to
further their aims and agenda (money).

The massive problem with Linux as a desktop OS
is the absence of a central authority that is
gifted with vision and will to innovate. Steve
Jobs was a man with such vision and the will
to make it real, the result was an OS thats a
pleasure to use.

Linux as an embedded/server OS is mostly passable.
Linux on the desktop is a bad joke.

By: psu

psu — Thu, 01 Dec 2005 14:09:29 +0000

The best thing about the interweb is getting smacked down by zit-faced teenage morons who can’t spell or write complete sentences.

By: peterb

peterb — Thu, 01 Dec 2005 13:25:19 +0000

Well, as long as we’re pulling rank, let me observe that your career in software engineering is going to be exceedingly short if your response to seeing a design that is completely fucking broken is to blame the user.

I say that, of course, as a software engineer.

By: Anonymous

Anonymous — Thu, 01 Dec 2005 10:20:58 +0000

Here we go again:
It is really simple, if you don’t know/care how to use the software properly then don’t. There are a lot of alternatives for people such as yourself. Your disability in regards to said software speaks volumes about you not the software. The source is availble so I suggest you either change it to suit your needs and make it available to others or stick with whatever software you are able to use. Otherwise your just another “luser” who wants everything done for him/her and I as a software engineer am tired of holding your hands and wiping your collective asses. Grow up.

By: Tony Montana

Tony Montana — Sun, 20 Nov 2005 03:37:25 +0000

Willy,

go back to popping your pimples in front of the mirror and please dont utter the unspeakable
incantation (X11) again, ever.

By: peterb

peterb — Sat, 19 Nov 2005 20:31:55 +0000

Willy,

Given that you can’t seem to get even the simplest of facts right — X11 was released in 1987 — I’m not inclined to respond to any of your other points.

If you don’t understand how X11 fails to support even the simplest cross-application copy/paste scenarios in a semiconsistent way, as in the example given IN THE VERY FIRST PARAGRAPH of THE WEB PAGE YOU ARE READING, then I can only assume that you (a) didn’t read the web page you are commenting on, (b) have never actually used X11, and (c) have never actually used copy/paste in any application, on any operating system, ever, in your entire life.

Regards,
peterb

By: willy

willy — Sat, 19 Nov 2005 18:09:53 +0000

You’re right…I didn’t read the article at http://pepper.idge.net/disaster.html until you just pointed me to it…however I think you’ve missed the point of the article or you’ve taken some creative interpretation of the context to meet your own need for validation.

1. The only reference to copy/paste is this : “…only one of these programs implements anything in the way of cut-and-paste…”

This reads to me as “X11 has no limitation and the program is free to implement cut-paste as required by the application”. That is very different from saying you cannot implement cut/paste with X11.

2. One of the references in the article point to an email from 1992. X11 did not exist in 1992, but an earlier version of X, so I don’t see the relevance in the context of X11 here…just as I won’t compare DOS to WIN3.0 to WIN98 to WIN2K to WINXP.

3. A couple of the examples point out what anybody would consider a short coming, then go on to say “this has since been fixed” since I originally saw this. Then who cares…move on?

About the only interesting thing about that article was from a historical point of view you can see some early short comings and why it was not an attractive solution to a broader market even at that time…but I would say it’s still not attractive to the broader market you think it is targeted to — however I don’t see that as a problem for X11 for the same reason you can’t put a square peg in a round hole — you can’t make X11 fit meet the needs of all consumer and business markets, neither does windows or any other os.

I assume you never paid a penny for X11, so I’m not sure what basis you have to complain — and if you did pay for X11, why? You have clearly stated it doesn’t offer you anything, so you clearly have purchased the wrong product for your needs..interesting…I can’t be wrong no matter what your answer…

One last point: When you start talking about core dumps and in the same breathe say unix is not easy to use — for who is it not easy to use? A software engineer trying to debug a core dump has been using the same tools for 30 years and I don’t think they’re complaining about X11 causing them any harder of a time because of it — and when was the last time a consumer was going to debug a core dump? I don’t think this author is pointing anything useful out to the reader in that instance.

The 2 hyperlinks at the top of the article don’t work either — probably because they’re from 1992, but that would be speculative on my part.

Still I haven’t seen a SPECIFIC example of how X11 does not support copy/paste — which was how your commentary came to being in the first place…or have I missed something?