Comments on: What Goes Around http://tleaves.com/2005/12/06/what-goes-around/ Creativity x Technology Sat, 17 Mar 2012 05:09:58 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: knight37 http://tleaves.com/2005/12/06/what-goes-around/comment-page-1/#comment-2153 knight37 Tue, 20 Dec 2005 19:53:15 +0000 http://tleaves.com/?p=519#comment-2153 If A Tale in the Desert is failing, it is because while it does offer innovative gameplay, it is not terribly INTERESTING gameplay. I played that game when it was in beta and it just wasn't compelling. There's nothing terribly exciting about making virtual bricks. Growing virtual crops. Etc. But anyway on the subject, personally I do not think this is a problem. If gamers have no experience with the "original" does that mean they should be concerned that the game they are enjoying is an almost exact duplicate? No. And if they do have experience with the original, and the "new" game offers nothing new, then I'm sure they will find something else to do with their time. It's a bit of a different issue for reviewers which are theoretically experienced gamers and HAVE played the originals most of the time. But even then, they should be judging the game on what it is, not on what it imitates. Mentioning the earlier game, of course, is always a good idea. When I review a derivative game, like say Dungeon Siege, I explain what games have come before it, and what the new game offers. I don't take off marks just because it's not a unique concept. If I did that there would be VERY FEW games that got high marks. If A Tale in the Desert is failing, it is because while it does offer innovative gameplay, it is not terribly INTERESTING gameplay. I played that game when it was in beta and it just wasn’t compelling. There’s nothing terribly exciting about making virtual bricks. Growing virtual crops. Etc.

But anyway on the subject, personally I do not think this is a problem. If gamers have no experience with the “original” does that mean they should be concerned that the game they are enjoying is an almost exact duplicate? No. And if they do have experience with the original, and the “new” game offers nothing new, then I’m sure they will find something else to do with their time.

It’s a bit of a different issue for reviewers which are theoretically experienced gamers and HAVE played the originals most of the time. But even then, they should be judging the game on what it is, not on what it imitates. Mentioning the earlier game, of course, is always a good idea. When I review a derivative game, like say Dungeon Siege, I explain what games have come before it, and what the new game offers. I don’t take off marks just because it’s not a unique concept. If I did that there would be VERY FEW games that got high marks.

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By: nowak http://tleaves.com/2005/12/06/what-goes-around/comment-page-1/#comment-2152 nowak Sat, 17 Dec 2005 01:40:41 +0000 http://tleaves.com/?p=519#comment-2152 "I'm not saying I think Mumbo-Jumbo (or Popcap) should sue. That would be irritating. I'm just saying that at some point, sooner or later, someone IS going to sue over something like this." Yeah, first, the above post applies. Zuma is, itself, a rip. Please don't think of Popcap as an original company. Secondly, there HAVE been lawsuits like this -- they got thrown out of court. Gameplay mechanics and ideas are not copyrightable. Art and music and writing is, but not the underpining. Capcom vs Data East http://www.davis.ca/community/blogs/video_games/archive/1994/03/18/341.aspx “I’m not saying I think Mumbo-Jumbo (or Popcap) should sue. That would be irritating. I’m just saying that at some point, sooner or later, someone IS going to sue over something like this.”

Yeah, first, the above post applies. Zuma is, itself, a rip. Please don’t think of Popcap as an original company.

Secondly, there HAVE been lawsuits like this — they got thrown out of court. Gameplay mechanics and ideas are not copyrightable. Art and music and writing is, but not the underpining.

Capcom vs Data East
http://www.davis.ca/community/blogs/video_games/archive/1994/03/18/341.aspx

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By: Adam Rixey http://tleaves.com/2005/12/06/what-goes-around/comment-page-1/#comment-2151 Adam Rixey Wed, 07 Dec 2005 00:30:05 +0000 http://tleaves.com/?p=519#comment-2151 Game dork time: There was a Japanese arcade game called "Puzz Loop" from 1998 that's basically the exact same game, and predates Zuma and all the other clones. And I wouldn't be surprised if it's a copy of something else earlier. http://www.klov.com/game_detail.php?letter=P&game_id=9165 And frankly, I've got no problem with all the various clones in the casual game market. Is the hardcore market any different? Grab any 30 first person shooters or real time strategy titles and I'll bet that 29 of them are the same damn game. But every now and then somebody will come along and really bring something new to the field...that everybody else will then mimic. Also, I'm not sure that we'd see any difference in that fantasy world you mentioned. I'd bet a lot of developers are perfectly happy making duplicate games. Maybe it's a learning exercise. Maybe they don't have any ideas but still want to say that they "make games." Maybe it's just a hobby, the way some people knit perfectly functional sweaters. SOMETHING's got to explain all those damnable free Tetris, Breakout, and Bejewelled clones. Game dork time:

There was a Japanese arcade game called “Puzz Loop” from 1998 that’s basically the exact same game, and predates Zuma and all the other clones. And I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s a copy of something else earlier.

http://www.klov.com/game_detail.php?letter=P&game_id=9165

And frankly, I’ve got no problem with all the various clones in the casual game market. Is the hardcore market any different? Grab any 30 first person shooters or real time strategy titles and I’ll bet that 29 of them are the same damn game. But every now and then somebody will come along and really bring something new to the field…that everybody else will then mimic.

Also, I’m not sure that we’d see any difference in that fantasy world you mentioned. I’d bet a lot of developers are perfectly happy making duplicate games. Maybe it’s a learning exercise. Maybe they don’t have any ideas but still want to say that they “make games.” Maybe it’s just a hobby, the way some people knit perfectly functional sweaters. SOMETHING’s got to explain all those damnable free Tetris, Breakout, and Bejewelled clones.

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By: mike d http://tleaves.com/2005/12/06/what-goes-around/comment-page-1/#comment-2150 mike d Wed, 07 Dec 2005 00:05:45 +0000 http://tleaves.com/?p=519#comment-2150 ahahaha!! I loved the link to the review of 'a tale in the desert', about how the game is failing in the marketplace because nobody wants to buy innovative games. or more to the point, I love the lone comment where the commentator is looking for a clone of the game because he doesn't want to pay for the original. that's priceless :) ahahaha!! I loved the link to the review of ‘a tale in the desert’, about how the game is failing in the marketplace because nobody wants to buy innovative games. or more to the point, I love the lone comment where the commentator is looking for a clone of the game because he doesn’t want to pay for the original. that’s priceless :)

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By: Robert 'Groby' Blum http://tleaves.com/2005/12/06/what-goes-around/comment-page-1/#comment-2149 Robert 'Groby' Blum Tue, 06 Dec 2005 13:51:40 +0000 http://tleaves.com/?p=519#comment-2149 I think we (as consumers) have already responded. We keep buying the same game. If nobody bought the clones, it wouldn't be a problem. But we do, across all genres. We as critics have also responded - we complain about derivativeness. And we are rightfully ignored, because we too can't offer an idea how to make a non-derivative game that sells. Ultimately, the consumers decide. And they vote overwhelmingly to play regurgitated material. As a developer, all I can do here is shrug and go back to making Hydro Carnage Rumble Thunder 15. At least if I'm interested in a paycheck. I think we (as consumers) have already responded. We keep buying the same game. If nobody bought the clones, it wouldn’t be a problem. But we do, across all genres.

We as critics have also responded – we complain about derivativeness. And we are rightfully ignored, because we too can’t offer an idea how to make a non-derivative game that sells.

Ultimately, the consumers decide. And they vote overwhelmingly to play regurgitated material. As a developer, all I can do here is shrug and go back to making Hydro Carnage Rumble Thunder 15. At least if I’m interested in a paycheck.

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By: peterb http://tleaves.com/2005/12/06/what-goes-around/comment-page-1/#comment-2148 peterb Tue, 06 Dec 2005 12:27:11 +0000 http://tleaves.com/?p=519#comment-2148 I knew someone would bring this up. You are correct that copyright does not cover ideas. Copyright covers the expression of an idea. What the "expression" of the idea is in a game context is not entirely clear. For instance, that "shoot balls at a other objects, which disappear when three or more of the same color match" is an idea, and is not copyrightable. But looking at (for example) Luxor and Atlantis side by side, there are a ton of decisions that the earlier game made that are NOT simply ideas: -the colors of the balls are the same. -the textures on the balls are similar. -the balls are the same size (imagine how different the game would look if the balls were, say, pea sized) -the look of the channel is similar. -the speed at which the balls move is similar (including the way they slow down when they reach the goal) -the physics of the balls are similar (and it is not at all obvious that they "must" be.) To give you an example by analogy: If I took the text of Harry Potter and ran a search and replace to change the names and make the locale a school for priests and priestesses in Egypt rather than wizards and wizards in Scotland, J.K. Rowling would still be able to argue that I infringed her copyright, because there would still be thousands of little choices that she made in how to express her idea that subsisted in the resulting product. I think the same sorts of things happen when casual game makers copy from each other and just change the "theme". I'm not saying I think Mumbo-Jumbo (or Popcap) should sue. That would be irritating. I'm just saying that at some point, sooner or later, someone IS going to sue over something like this. All of that being said, I think the legal question is not actually that interesting, and it will work itself out by itself without any help from me. What I find really interesting is the question of how we, as consumers (and critics) should be reacting to the glut of games that are not merely inspired by others, but are, more or less, direct copies of each other. That this happens in the small game space and is therefore sucking up the resources of developers who, in my fantasy world where they don't need to get paid, would be making new and different games is one of my concerns. I knew someone would bring this up.

You are correct that copyright does not cover ideas. Copyright covers the expression of an idea. What the “expression” of the idea is in a game context is not entirely clear.

For instance, that “shoot balls at a other objects, which disappear when three or more of the same color match” is an idea, and is not copyrightable. But looking at (for example) Luxor and Atlantis side by side, there are a ton of decisions that the earlier game made that are NOT simply ideas:

-the colors of the balls are the same.
-the textures on the balls are similar.
-the balls are the same size (imagine how different the game would look if the balls were, say, pea sized)
-the look of the channel is similar.
-the speed at which the balls move is similar (including the way they slow down when they reach the goal)
-the physics of the balls are similar (and it is not at all obvious that they “must” be.)

To give you an example by analogy: If I took the text of Harry Potter and ran a search and replace to change the names and make the locale a school for priests and priestesses in Egypt rather than wizards and wizards in Scotland, J.K. Rowling would still be able to argue that I infringed her copyright, because there would still be thousands of little choices that she made in how to express her idea that subsisted in the resulting product. I think the same sorts of things happen when casual game makers copy from each other and just change the “theme”.

I’m not saying I think Mumbo-Jumbo (or Popcap) should sue. That would be irritating. I’m just saying that at some point, sooner or later, someone IS going to sue over something like this.

All of that being said, I think the legal question is not actually that interesting, and it will work itself out by itself without any help from me. What I find really interesting is the question of how we, as consumers (and critics) should be reacting to the glut of games that are not merely inspired by others, but are, more or less, direct copies of each other.

That this happens in the small game space and is therefore sucking up the resources of developers who, in my fantasy world where they don’t need to get paid, would be making new and different games is one of my concerns.

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By: Robert 'Groby' Blum http://tleaves.com/2005/12/06/what-goes-around/comment-page-1/#comment-2147 Robert 'Groby' Blum Tue, 06 Dec 2005 05:38:43 +0000 http://tleaves.com/?p=519#comment-2147 Nobody is suing there because copyright (rightfully!) doesn't cover game ideas, only implementations. What's next? We get romance authors suing each others because the works are so similar? FPS companies each other? (Because, let's face it - FPS games *own* the market for derivative games) Thankfully, the copyright law hasn't been diluted *that* much. Nobody is suing there because copyright (rightfully!) doesn’t cover game ideas, only implementations. What’s next? We get romance authors suing each others because the works are so similar? FPS companies each other? (Because, let’s face it – FPS games *own* the market for derivative games)

Thankfully, the copyright law hasn’t been diluted *that* much.

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