Comments on: Late to the Party http://tleaves.com/2006/03/01/late-to-the-party/ Creativity x Technology Sat, 17 Mar 2012 05:09:58 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Jon F http://tleaves.com/2006/03/01/late-to-the-party/comment-page-1/#comment-2505 Jon F Wed, 08 Mar 2006 21:44:49 +0000 http://tleaves.com/?p=574#comment-2505 Mike, you managed to touch on about half a dozen of my favorite things to argue about, so I'm still pondering my response. I just stopped in to link to this nugget: http://www.theonion.com/content/node/46046 Mike, you managed to touch on about half a dozen of my favorite things to argue about, so I’m still pondering my response. I just stopped in to link to this nugget: http://www.theonion.com/content/node/46046

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By: Mike Collins http://tleaves.com/2006/03/01/late-to-the-party/comment-page-1/#comment-2504 Mike Collins Sun, 05 Mar 2006 15:53:39 +0000 http://tleaves.com/?p=574#comment-2504 Jon F - True enough, but the "Literature" section is also the great unclassified of the bookstore, and I think that's the key point behind Pete's assertion. There are microgenres within literature, like the Bridget Jones style women-having-breakdowns-at-30 books, but since they're next to the Kobo Abe and Alexandre Dumas, I think you get a much more mixed message. In contrast, when you have a well-defined genre like SF, you have a fair degree of ghettoization going on, because there are authors whose entire existence is playing to the tropes of the genre, like the incessant David Drake novels. You have authors who are aware of and occasionally shred the genre's conventions (China Mieville being a good example), but they're still basically bounded by it. This is reinforced by audiences who will basically pick up a random novel in the category because it is is fantasy - as long as it falls within the genre boundaries, they expect reasonable satisfaction. Taking it a step further, most of these genres are descended from a relatively small number of authors. Diana Wynn Jones wrote a really nasty piss-take on fantasy novels, "The Rough Guide To Fantasyland" which points out that there's a prevalence of "Anglo-Saxon Cossacks" in fantasy lit. This is directly descended from Tolkien, who had a specific reason for wanting Anglo-Saxon light cavalry. Michael Moorcock occasionally gripes that he doesn't see much point in reading fantasy because everything is a ripoff of him or Tolkien. I think if you were to break down Fantasy to descended from Tolkien, Howard, Moorcock and Gary Gygax, you'd be able to plot almost all contemporary books somewhere close. The question in SF, then, I think, is whether or not obeying the conventions of the genre means also ignoring the finer details of plot and characterization. Banks has referred to The Culture as something of a response to the Heinleinian hyper-capitalist future, and I think we can count the origin SF authors fairly easily - Smith, Asimov, Heinlein. None of these guys are great prose stylists, their work is primarily sold on ideas for their audience - the tendency for egoboo in the SF fan community, and the intensive nitpicking that characterizes the ink spilled over the genre is a good indication that the major issue is the ideas and the manipulation of the ideas behind the story, rather than the story itself. I don't think anyone's ever praised I, Robot for the characterization of Susan Calvin, and rereading _Foundation_ recently, I was reminded of just how doofy Hari Seldon's appearances are. Jon F -

True enough, but the “Literature” section is also the great unclassified of the bookstore, and I think that’s the key point behind Pete’s assertion. There are microgenres within literature, like the Bridget Jones style women-having-breakdowns-at-30 books, but since they’re next to the Kobo Abe and Alexandre Dumas, I think you get a much more mixed message.

In contrast, when you have a well-defined genre like SF, you have a fair degree of ghettoization going on, because there are authors whose entire existence is playing to the tropes of the genre, like the incessant David Drake novels. You have authors who are aware of and occasionally shred the genre’s conventions (China Mieville being a good example), but they’re still basically bounded by it. This is reinforced by audiences who will basically pick up a random novel in the category because it is is fantasy – as long as it falls within the genre boundaries, they expect reasonable satisfaction.

Taking it a step further, most of these genres are descended from a relatively small number of authors. Diana Wynn Jones wrote a really nasty piss-take on fantasy novels, “The Rough Guide To Fantasyland” which points out that there’s a prevalence of “Anglo-Saxon Cossacks” in fantasy lit. This is directly descended from Tolkien, who had a specific reason for wanting Anglo-Saxon light cavalry. Michael Moorcock occasionally gripes that he doesn’t see much point in reading fantasy because everything is a ripoff of him or Tolkien. I think if you were to break down Fantasy to descended from Tolkien, Howard, Moorcock and Gary Gygax, you’d be able to plot almost all contemporary books somewhere close.

The question in SF, then, I think, is whether or not obeying the conventions of the genre means also ignoring the finer details of plot and characterization. Banks has referred to The Culture as something of a response to the Heinleinian hyper-capitalist future, and I think we can count the origin SF authors fairly easily – Smith, Asimov, Heinlein. None of these guys are great prose stylists, their work is primarily sold on ideas for their audience – the tendency for egoboo in the SF fan community, and the intensive nitpicking that characterizes the ink spilled over the genre is a good indication that the major issue is the ideas and the manipulation of the ideas behind the story, rather than the story itself. I don’t think anyone’s ever praised I, Robot for the characterization of Susan Calvin, and rereading _Foundation_ recently, I was reminded of just how doofy Hari Seldon’s appearances are.

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By: peterb http://tleaves.com/2006/03/01/late-to-the-party/comment-page-1/#comment-2503 peterb Sun, 05 Mar 2006 12:27:55 +0000 http://tleaves.com/?p=574#comment-2503 TouchÈ. TouchÈ.

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By: Jon F http://tleaves.com/2006/03/01/late-to-the-party/comment-page-1/#comment-2502 Jon F Sun, 05 Mar 2006 06:30:43 +0000 http://tleaves.com/?p=574#comment-2502 Careful with that brush, Eugene. "Literature" is just as much of a marketing designation. It means, "Fiction that, somewhere in the world, you can get college credit for reading," and is still no guarantee of quality. That's where they put Ayn Rand, after all. Careful with that brush, Eugene. “Literature” is just as much of a marketing designation. It means, “Fiction that, somewhere in the world, you can get college credit for reading,” and is still no guarantee of quality. That’s where they put Ayn Rand, after all.

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By: peterb http://tleaves.com/2006/03/01/late-to-the-party/comment-page-1/#comment-2501 peterb Sun, 05 Mar 2006 04:32:11 +0000 http://tleaves.com/?p=574#comment-2501 Mike, This touches on a subject that interests me. I am painting with a very broad brush here, but there's an argument to be made along the lines of "Science Fiction that is well written isn't on the Sci-Fi shelf; it's on the Literature shelf." This is, of course, a grossly unfair generalization. But what I'm trying to do is point out the existence of "sci fi" (or fantasy, or mystery, or what have you) as more of a "marketing genre" than as a useful designation. Salman Rushdie's "Midnight's Children" is as much sci-fi as anything on the sci-fi shelves. But the writing doesn't suck, so it's on the general fiction shelves. Mike,

This touches on a subject that interests me. I am painting with a very broad brush here, but there’s an argument to be made along the lines of “Science Fiction that is well written isn’t on the Sci-Fi shelf; it’s on the Literature shelf.” This is, of course, a grossly unfair generalization. But what I’m trying to do is point out the existence of “sci fi” (or fantasy, or mystery, or what have you) as more of a “marketing genre” than as a useful designation.

Salman Rushdie’s “Midnight’s Children” is as much sci-fi as anything on the sci-fi shelves. But the writing doesn’t suck, so it’s on the general fiction shelves.

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By: Mike Collins http://tleaves.com/2006/03/01/late-to-the-party/comment-page-1/#comment-2500 Mike Collins Sun, 05 Mar 2006 02:22:52 +0000 http://tleaves.com/?p=574#comment-2500 Jon F - your comments on Dune are my standard SF Gripe; there are an enormous number of classic SF/Horror/Fantasy pieces which read better in the -abstract- then when I'm faced with the actual artifact. Lovecraft is a classic example of this, but there's an inordinate amount of classic SF where the prose, plot and characterization is workmanlike at best. SF's great contribution to literature may be the idea of formal world building, but there's too much of it which stops there. Not to condemn the entire genre so flagrantly, I still hold a Canticle For Liebowitz up to anything else written this century. Jon F – your comments on Dune are my standard SF Gripe; there are an enormous number of classic SF/Horror/Fantasy pieces which read better in the -abstract- then when I’m faced with the actual artifact. Lovecraft is a classic example of this, but there’s an inordinate amount of classic SF where the prose, plot and characterization is workmanlike at best. SF’s great contribution to literature may be the idea of formal world building, but there’s too much of it which stops there.

Not to condemn the entire genre so flagrantly, I still hold a Canticle For Liebowitz up to anything else written this century.

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By: Jon F http://tleaves.com/2006/03/01/late-to-the-party/comment-page-1/#comment-2499 Jon F Sat, 04 Mar 2006 19:10:28 +0000 http://tleaves.com/?p=574#comment-2499 Sorry, Chris. Your credentials are acceptable, but you couldn't be more wrong about the difference between Dune and Gormenghast. Yes, there is ultimately a payoff in slogging through Dune, and many people have gotten to it. It is the payoff of realizing that there is a whole universe of fascinating technology, history, and relationships, and it makes your brain fizz with the possibilities. It doesn't change the facts that actual story told by the book is rather mundane (managing to collapse a fantastic eight-sided conflict down to only three) and that the sentence "Immerse it!" remains one of the most gut-wrenchingly awful ever written in the English language. Never mind the usual argument of whether the movie was better than the book--in this case the book was beaten by the board game! This is not a criticism of the *concept*, it is a criticism of the *execution*, in the same way that the Star Wars Expanded Universe remains a vibrant creative ground despite the fact that George Lucas is such a shit director of movie actors. For a taste of what might have been, try The Tower of Fear by Glen Cook. Gormenghast, contrarily, is difficult to read because it is so *good* at the level of *every* sentence, paragraph, and chapter. To use Elmore Leonard's language, it is Ivory soap: 99.44% pure hooptedoodle. The text itself presents a very weird choice to the reader. On the one hand, each chapter is a fine little essay on a minute corner of a ritual-driven world being bumped from its habitual track. The end of each chapter invites the reader to stop and ponder, to appreciate this very precise viewpoint fully. And yet, on the other hand, the human desire to know what happens next propels the reader forward past this point of view, without giving it full value. The overall effect is that of making a conscious effort to percieve the forest despite the trees, knowing quite well that each tree deserves its own attention, and feeling a sense of loss that it cannot be given. This serves to compound the overall sense of loss that the story describes, of the decay of a monstrous seventy-six-generations-old castle and the families within it. That is the poetic effect at work, the language fully serving the emotional impact of the story. Sorry, Chris. Your credentials are acceptable, but you couldn’t be more wrong about the difference between Dune and Gormenghast.

Yes, there is ultimately a payoff in slogging through Dune, and many people have gotten to it. It is the payoff of realizing that there is a whole universe of fascinating technology, history, and relationships, and it makes your brain fizz with the possibilities. It doesn’t change the facts that actual story told by the book is rather mundane (managing to collapse a fantastic eight-sided conflict down to only three) and that the sentence “Immerse it!” remains one of the most gut-wrenchingly awful ever written in the English language. Never mind the usual argument of whether the movie was better than the book–in this case the book was beaten by the board game! This is not a criticism of the *concept*, it is a criticism of the *execution*, in the same way that the Star Wars Expanded Universe remains a vibrant creative ground despite the fact that George Lucas is such a shit director of movie actors. For a taste of what might have been, try The Tower of Fear by Glen Cook.

Gormenghast, contrarily, is difficult to read because it is so *good* at the level of *every* sentence, paragraph, and chapter. To use Elmore Leonard’s language, it is Ivory soap: 99.44% pure hooptedoodle. The text itself presents a very weird choice to the reader. On the one hand, each chapter is a fine little essay on a minute corner of a ritual-driven world being bumped from its habitual track. The end of each chapter invites the reader to stop and ponder, to appreciate this very precise viewpoint fully. And yet, on the other hand, the human desire to know what happens next propels the reader forward past this point of view, without giving it full value. The overall effect is that of making a conscious effort to percieve the forest despite the trees, knowing quite well that each tree deserves its own attention, and feeling a sense of loss that it cannot be given. This serves to compound the overall sense of loss that the story describes, of the decay of a monstrous seventy-six-generations-old castle and the families within it. That is the poetic effect at work, the language fully serving the emotional impact of the story.

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By: Palafox http://tleaves.com/2006/03/01/late-to-the-party/comment-page-1/#comment-2498 Palafox Sat, 04 Mar 2006 17:31:53 +0000 http://tleaves.com/?p=574#comment-2498 One modern writer that I think combines a sheer sense of boyish adventure with nicely written prose is Jack Vance. His "Demon Princes" books for example, that tell a revenge yarn similar in places to "The Count of Monte Cristo". One modern writer that I think combines a sheer sense of boyish adventure with nicely written prose is Jack Vance. His “Demon Princes” books for example, that tell a revenge yarn similar in places to “The Count of Monte Cristo”.

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By: Tim F http://tleaves.com/2006/03/01/late-to-the-party/comment-page-1/#comment-2497 Tim F Fri, 03 Mar 2006 15:46:12 +0000 http://tleaves.com/?p=574#comment-2497 I second Dickens. Sublime. I second Dickens. Sublime.

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By: Chris Ryland http://tleaves.com/2006/03/01/late-to-the-party/comment-page-1/#comment-2496 Chris Ryland Fri, 03 Mar 2006 00:12:42 +0000 http://tleaves.com/?p=574#comment-2496 Have you tried Trollope? Wonderful, meaty, almost tasty writing, but not everyone's cup o' tea. Have you tried Trollope? Wonderful, meaty, almost tasty writing, but not everyone’s cup o’ tea.

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