Comments on: A Hill of Beans http://tleaves.com/2006/06/20/a-hill-of-beans/ Creativity x Technology Sat, 17 Mar 2012 05:09:58 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Al http://tleaves.com/2006/06/20/a-hill-of-beans/comment-page-1/#comment-2998 Al Thu, 13 Jul 2006 20:05:39 +0000 http://tleaves.com/?p=640#comment-2998 Yes I'm convinced a large part of the reason espresso is better in Italy is the milk. Yes I’m convinced a large part of the reason espresso is better in Italy is the milk.

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By: Amos the Poker Cat http://tleaves.com/2006/06/20/a-hill-of-beans/comment-page-1/#comment-2997 Amos the Poker Cat Tue, 27 Jun 2006 02:17:36 +0000 http://tleaves.com/?p=640#comment-2997 Blue Horse suffers from having only "fair trade" coffees. I hold to the original view that "fair trade" coffees are inherently lower quality. Economics 101. However, their gelato is pretty good. Blue Horse suffers from having only “fair trade” coffees. I hold to the original view that “fair trade” coffees are inherently lower quality. Economics 101.

However, their gelato is pretty good.

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By: anonymous http://tleaves.com/2006/06/20/a-hill-of-beans/comment-page-1/#comment-2996 anonymous Sun, 25 Jun 2006 20:10:14 +0000 http://tleaves.com/?p=640#comment-2996 psu & peterb, Your points definitely have merit. For further discussion... coffee and espresso is something which I have been obsessing over during the past year or two. I understand enough to realize how little I know, but the following seems to be pretty much understood as true by most if not all: Roasted coffee should not be used for anything longer than 2 weeks unless stored using extreme measures. (i.e. Illy - which after opening however, should be used en-whole ASAP as taste will disappear much more rapidly than freshly roasted coffee - pretty much immediately actually.) Unfortunately, La Prima does not mark roast dates - but even so - I have fared pretty well for the most part when buying there. I believe they do enough business to typically ensure that the beans you are buying are fresh. I'll also get espresso or espresso based drinks, but I'd wish they'd clean their equipment more often. (I'm not sure I've ever seen the steam wands clean.) Needless to say having one of the city's best bakery's directly attached (Il Piccolo Forno) - makes for a no lose proposition. When roasting coffee there is generally a rest period of about 3 days depending on the degree of roast and beans involved. If brewed during the resting period, you will see major bubbles due to oxygen escaping, and it will generally not taste it's best, or even quite bad in some cases. (Espresso's crema is actually emulisified solids due to the pressure inherit to the brewing process, press pot coffee has a somewhat similar affect visually - termed as bloom, moka pots / stovetops espresso machines are roughly in-between.) So in regards to shipping beans, as long as roasted beans are shipped during the rest period or shortly thereafter, it *will* be just as good as having a local roaster taste wise. The actual roast also plays a major part in regards to what you end up with. Long (or dark and oily) roasts destroy much of the natural flavor, but are often relied upon by chain shops due to being able to roast much more consistently this way (and also for disguising cheap beans), and to make bases for drinks using typically a ungodly large amount of milk. This is part of the reason why the myth exists that espresso should be a near un-drinkably strong beverage - which is quite untrue. When done right, there is pretty much no need for milk or sugar - and it should be naturally sweet in most cases. (Stovetop espresso machines / moka pots such as Bialetti, etc - do not produce espresso - but something 1/2 way inbetween drip and espresso and typically fairly strong.) The great news is that La Prima like other smart roasters does not burn their beans... CoffeeTree's are also not burnt, but I have not had as much success with them on my home equipment for some reason. Also, roasted coffee should really only be ground immediately prior to use no matter what method is used for brewing. Unless you see enough traffic in a shop which will empty the grinder hopper throughout the day - if it's pre-ground when you order - you are at best getting 1/2 of what you should be taste wise. As important as the roast are the beans themselves. Unroasted beans, will typically survive about a year or so before starting to lose potential. (Although people are now looking at measures to stores greens even longer and/or prevent any kind of loss in flavor. i.e. Terroir / George Howell - with much success.) As most espressos are blends, bad components/beans of a blend, will yield bad results no matter how well roasted and prepared. The focus on quality beans by smart buyers is increasing greatly, hence some of the record prices being paid recently for quality greens. Even companies with great blends, spend much time and effort trying to source components which will stay at the same level of consistency through the year in regards to quality to ensure consistency with their blend. This is not an easy task. This leads us to the source. While Fair Trade as an idea/concept certainly sounds appealing to the average consumer with a heart, it has come under much criticism for some of the reasons you have eluded to. In general, there is no reward or focus on quality and the actual benefits to the farmers are somewhat misleading. Also, seeing that logo does not guarantee the buyer that the entire product they are using is 'fairly traded' - only a certain portion. For a very revealing and entertaining conversation on this topic - listen to Portafilter.net podcast #27. In short, Fair Trade has nothing to do with taste. However, given the passion of community surrounding coffee - I believe this will either change in time or the their will be a major shift away from the Fair Trade brand name altogether. Lastly, like most things, people are the greatest threat at destroying perfectly good product. (Precisely why Starbucks is removing the majority of their semi-automatic machines with fully automated machines from most of their US shops.) The person and/or the shop preparing the drink can do plenty to take perfectly good roasted beans and hand you a cup which will likely be thrown straight into the garbage after one sip. Dosing - the amount of coffee used per shot, quality of grind, good water, tamping pressure/distribution, grind/brew temperature, brew pressure, timing of the shot, cleanliness, and general ability in preparing/not screwing up milk based beverages are a big part. (Making latte art has nothing to do with how a drink tastes. Knowing the proper rations for real milk based drinks, how to prepare the milk, and using decent milk does.) Equipment also definitely makes a difference - being the grinder and espresso machine, but a great barista can work wonders with bad equipment. A poor barista with the best of equipment will more than likely rely on luck at best to get a decent drink. In short fresh quality beans, roasted correctly and prepared consistently by a trained or concienscous individual on good to great equipment = godhead. Even greater still are places which have made a successful business model around this and/or provide great customer service and a great atmosphere to sit down and spend time at. Look to Intelligentsia (Chicago) and Stumptown (Portland) for good examples of roaster's/cafe's who have really succeeded in this regard. Doing this with a high level of consistency and quality is not an easy task. Where Pittsburgh has fallen short from my experience is most often, the person behind the bar and overall consistency of product. CoffeeTree typically has excellent drip coffee but unless I see one of the owners behind the bar or in the store, I'll stay away from anything espresso based. La Prima has great coffee, but as you mentioned staffing has been a concern here as well. Aldo's only minus for me is location for me as I live in the city - but that's my problem. I really feel it will be these 3 three businesses which will move the city forward. (Though the next tier would include those such as Enrico's Tazzo'doro, Blue Horse, Cafe Intermezzo who also use out of town roasters who focus on quality.) There also some places which may excel at location/ambience but the coffee is mediocre at best and downright insipid at worst. (Ironically, some of these are the most crowded. ) The more I learn about quality food - the same principals apply to coffee. Usually the good stuff is made in smaller portions, by people who care about their relationships with their suppliers, their role in the community, and a never ending focus on quality. As a fan of site - keep up the great work... Thanks! psu & peterb,

Your points definitely have merit. For further discussion… coffee and espresso is something which I have been obsessing over during the past year or two. I understand enough to realize how little I know, but the following seems to be pretty much understood as true by most if not all:

Roasted coffee should not be used for anything longer than 2 weeks unless stored using extreme measures. (i.e. Illy – which after opening however, should be used en-whole ASAP as taste will disappear much more rapidly than freshly roasted coffee – pretty much immediately actually.)

Unfortunately, La Prima does not mark roast dates – but even so – I have fared pretty well for the most part when buying there. I believe they do enough business to typically ensure that the beans you are buying are fresh. I’ll also get espresso or espresso based drinks, but I’d wish they’d clean their equipment more often. (I’m not sure I’ve ever seen the steam wands clean.) Needless to say having one of the city’s best bakery’s directly attached (Il Piccolo Forno) – makes for a no lose proposition.

When roasting coffee there is generally a rest period of about 3 days depending on the degree of roast and beans involved. If brewed during the resting period, you will see major bubbles due to oxygen escaping, and it will generally not taste it’s best, or even quite bad in some cases. (Espresso’s crema is actually emulisified solids due to the pressure inherit to the brewing process, press pot coffee has a somewhat similar affect visually – termed as bloom, moka pots / stovetops espresso machines are roughly in-between.) So in regards to shipping beans, as long as roasted beans are shipped during the rest period or shortly thereafter, it *will* be just as good as having a local roaster taste wise.

The actual roast also plays a major part in regards to what you end up with. Long (or dark and oily) roasts destroy much of the natural flavor, but are often relied upon by chain shops due to being able to roast much more consistently this way (and also for disguising cheap beans), and to make bases for drinks using typically a ungodly large amount of milk. This is part of the reason why the myth exists that espresso should be a near un-drinkably strong beverage – which is quite untrue. When done right, there is pretty much no need for milk or sugar – and it should be naturally sweet in most cases. (Stovetop espresso machines / moka pots such as Bialetti, etc – do not produce espresso – but something 1/2 way inbetween drip and espresso and typically fairly strong.) The great news is that La Prima like other smart roasters does not burn their beans… CoffeeTree’s are also not burnt, but I have not had as much success with them on my home equipment for some reason.

Also, roasted coffee should really only be ground immediately prior to use no matter what method is used for brewing. Unless you see enough traffic in a shop which will empty the grinder hopper throughout the day – if it’s pre-ground when you order – you are at best getting 1/2 of what you should be taste wise.

As important as the roast are the beans themselves. Unroasted beans, will typically survive about a year or so before starting to lose potential. (Although people are now looking at measures to stores greens even longer and/or prevent any kind of loss in flavor. i.e. Terroir / George Howell – with much success.) As most espressos are blends, bad components/beans of a blend, will yield bad results no matter how well roasted and prepared. The focus on quality beans by smart buyers is increasing greatly, hence some of the record prices being paid recently for quality greens. Even companies with great blends, spend much time and effort trying to source components which will stay at the same level of consistency through the year in regards to quality to ensure consistency with their blend. This is not an easy task.

This leads us to the source. While Fair Trade as an idea/concept certainly sounds appealing to the average consumer with a heart, it has come under much criticism for some of the reasons you have eluded to. In general, there is no reward or focus on quality and the actual benefits to the farmers are somewhat misleading. Also, seeing that logo does not guarantee the buyer that the entire product they are using is ‘fairly traded’ – only a certain portion. For a very revealing and entertaining conversation on this topic – listen to Portafilter.net podcast #27. In short, Fair Trade has nothing to do with taste. However, given the passion of community surrounding coffee – I believe this will either change in time or the their will be a major shift away from the Fair Trade brand name altogether.

Lastly, like most things, people are the greatest threat at destroying perfectly good product. (Precisely why Starbucks is removing the majority of their semi-automatic machines with fully automated machines from most of their US shops.) The person and/or the shop preparing the drink can do plenty to take perfectly good roasted beans and hand you a cup which will likely be thrown straight into the garbage after one sip. Dosing – the amount of coffee used per shot, quality of grind, good water, tamping pressure/distribution, grind/brew temperature, brew pressure, timing of the shot, cleanliness, and general ability in preparing/not screwing up milk based beverages are a big part. (Making latte art has nothing to do with how a drink tastes. Knowing the proper rations for real milk based drinks, how to prepare the milk, and using decent milk does.) Equipment also definitely makes a difference – being the grinder and espresso machine, but a great barista can work wonders with bad equipment. A poor barista with the best of equipment will more than likely rely on luck at best to get a decent drink.

In short fresh quality beans, roasted correctly and prepared consistently by a trained or concienscous individual on good to great equipment = godhead.

Even greater still are places which have made a successful business model around this and/or provide great customer service and a great atmosphere to sit down and spend time at. Look to Intelligentsia (Chicago) and Stumptown (Portland) for good examples of roaster’s/cafe’s who have really succeeded in this regard. Doing this with a high level of consistency and quality is not an easy task.

Where Pittsburgh has fallen short from my experience is most often, the person behind the bar and overall consistency of product. CoffeeTree typically has excellent drip coffee but unless I see one of the owners behind the bar or in the store, I’ll stay away from anything espresso based. La Prima has great coffee, but as you mentioned staffing has been a concern here as well. Aldo’s only minus for me is location for me as I live in the city – but that’s my problem. I really feel it will be these 3 three businesses which will move the city forward. (Though the next tier would include those such as Enrico’s Tazzo’doro, Blue Horse, Cafe Intermezzo who also use out of town roasters who focus on quality.)

There also some places which may excel at location/ambience but the coffee is mediocre at best and downright insipid at worst. (Ironically, some of these are the most crowded. )

The more I learn about quality food – the same principals apply to coffee. Usually the good stuff is made in smaller portions, by people who care about their relationships with their suppliers, their role in the community, and a never ending focus on quality.

As a fan of site – keep up the great work… Thanks!

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By: Nat http://tleaves.com/2006/06/20/a-hill-of-beans/comment-page-1/#comment-2995 Nat Fri, 23 Jun 2006 03:05:25 +0000 http://tleaves.com/?p=640#comment-2995 I don't regularly buy La Prima's non-espresso beans, but I could have sworn that I've seen more than "french roast, and one or two other things" alongside the espresso. I don’t regularly buy La Prima’s non-espresso beans, but I could have sworn that I’ve seen more than “french roast, and one or two other things” alongside the espresso.

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By: Amos the Poker Cat http://tleaves.com/2006/06/20/a-hill-of-beans/comment-page-1/#comment-2994 Amos the Poker Cat Thu, 22 Jun 2006 23:22:28 +0000 http://tleaves.com/?p=640#comment-2994 Personally, I am always willing to try something new, once, within reason. I enjoy the cappuccino at La Prima, but I rarely buy their beans. Nothing against them. I just don't make expresso at home, and they do not seem to have much of a selection of varieties, just a french roast, and one or two other things. Personally, I am always willing to try something new, once, within reason.

I enjoy the cappuccino at La Prima, but I rarely buy their beans. Nothing against them. I just don’t make expresso at home, and they do not seem to have much of a selection of varieties, just a french roast, and one or two other things.

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By: Tom Moertel http://tleaves.com/2006/06/20/a-hill-of-beans/comment-page-1/#comment-2993 Tom Moertel Wed, 21 Jun 2006 18:01:15 +0000 http://tleaves.com/?p=640#comment-2993 Peterb, I agree completely, especially on the Scooby-Shaggy love thing. I also agree w/ psu in that skill and freshness largely determine what's in the cup. Nevertheless, psu's comments about, "at least a day fresher, and therefore better," and, "if you don't think a day in the truck makes a difference," don't tell the whole story about freshness, and the rest of the story is worth telling: there is no freshness penalty for shipping during the resting period. This fact is worth recognizing because there are truly good shops (e.g., Aldo) that serve fresh coffees shipped in from out-of-town roasters. Ignoring these places would be a great way to screw yourself out of a worthy cup. Cheers, Tom Peterb, I agree completely, especially on the Scooby-Shaggy love thing. I also agree w/ psu in that skill and freshness largely determine what’s in the cup.

Nevertheless, psu’s comments about, “at least a day fresher, and therefore better,” and, “if you don’t think a day in the truck makes a difference,” don’t tell the whole story about freshness, and the rest of the story is worth telling: there is no freshness penalty for shipping during the resting period. This fact is worth recognizing because there are truly good shops (e.g., Aldo) that serve fresh coffees shipped in from out-of-town roasters. Ignoring these places would be a great way to screw yourself out of a worthy cup.

Cheers,
Tom

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By: Doug http://tleaves.com/2006/06/20/a-hill-of-beans/comment-page-1/#comment-2992 Doug Wed, 21 Jun 2006 17:55:29 +0000 http://tleaves.com/?p=640#comment-2992 What if they are MAGIC beans, jack? What if they are MAGIC beans, jack?

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By: peterb http://tleaves.com/2006/06/20/a-hill-of-beans/comment-page-1/#comment-2991 peterb Wed, 21 Jun 2006 11:05:23 +0000 http://tleaves.com/?p=640#comment-2991 Tom, I love you like Scooby loves Shaggy, but come on. If one has to compare the relative risks of (a) walking in to a coffee shop and getting stale coffee vs. (b) walking in to a coffee shop and getting coffee that was just <em>too darn fresh</em>, you'd have to agree that the former happens surprisingly often, and the latter basically doesn't happen at all. Tom, I love you like Scooby loves Shaggy, but come on. If one has to compare the relative risks of (a) walking in to a coffee shop and getting stale coffee vs. (b) walking in to a coffee shop and getting coffee that was just too darn fresh, you’d have to agree that the former happens surprisingly often, and the latter basically doesn’t happen at all.

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By: Tom Moertel http://tleaves.com/2006/06/20/a-hill-of-beans/comment-page-1/#comment-2990 Tom Moertel Wed, 21 Jun 2006 05:48:24 +0000 http://tleaves.com/?p=640#comment-2990 If you ever roast your own coffee, you might be surprised at how bad just-roasted coffee brews up. That's why roasters will not serve their own coffees until rested for a few days. My own espresso blends, for example, are not really drinkable until the third day and don't start to get good until the fourth and fifth days, peaking maybe on the sixth or seventh. Bottom line: Fresher than three days usually isn't desirable, so having your coffees shipped in is not a disadvantage. Cheers, Tom If you ever roast your own coffee, you might be surprised at how bad just-roasted coffee brews up. That’s why roasters will not serve their own coffees until rested for a few days. My own espresso blends, for example, are not really drinkable until the third day and don’t start to get good until the fourth and fifth days, peaking maybe on the sixth or seventh.

Bottom line: Fresher than three days usually isn’t desirable, so having your coffees shipped in is not a disadvantage.

Cheers,
Tom

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