Ferris Bueller’s Day Offing Himself
by peterb
It is a disturbing and compelling image. The young man is wearing his school uniform and a slim pair of headphones. He reaches into a pocket with his right hand and pulls out a gun. He flourishes, twirls the gun, and points it at his own temple. There’s a sharp report as he fires, and a fountain of glittering shards spray out of the other side of his head.
It is a compelling and disturbing image. In the course of a game of Persona 3, it is an image that will assault you thousands upon thousands of times.
Shin Megami Tensei: Persona 3 is a game that exploits this transgressive – and powerful – image to the fullest extent. There are complex in-game explanation as to why the teenagers in the game are not really blowing their brains out, but those are post-facto explanations. Fundamentally, the game was developed as an excuse to use this provocative image.
That Persona 3 is a Japanese game makes the suicide theme all the more disturbing. Japan has had an alarmingly high suicide rate for some time, and it has been increasing dramatically lately, especially among children. One could try to view Persona as a meaningful commentary on this situation, but that reading isn’t reasonably sustained by the game’s narrative or leitmotif. It feels to me at best crudely insensitive, and at worst a cynical attempt to profit from the phenomenon. Persona 3 is troubling not only because of the subject matter, but because of its reimagining of suicide as a heroic act. The game’s introductory video, for example, makes it seem downright romantic:
The Shin Megami Tensei (literally translated: “True Reincarnation of the Goddess” or “True Goddess Metempsychosis”) games have always been transgressive and edgy. It’s not clear that this game’s suicide theme is substantially more grim than the themes of previous outings (”You turn into a demon and destroy the world,”) or indeed of other games. What is different is the riveting nature of the game’s central image.
In the US market the game has an “M” (”mature”) rating, giving the publisher plausible deniability in the event of lawsuits. Despite that, the game is aimed firmly at high school children. Without going into too much detail about the game mechanics, the parts of the game that don’t involve shooting yourself in the head involve becoming popular at high school. This portion of the game plays like any number of Japanese games in the “dating sim” genre. I view this as another indication of the target audience of the game: teenagers. The game also has a brutally punishing save system where you have to slog ahead for a long period of time in order to reach a save point. Only people without responsibility – kids – can tolerate such broken save systems. So this is a game labeled as being for adults which is really intended for children. The world already believes that all videogames are for kids. We don’t need this sort of mislabeling helping the idea along.
Some may argue with my assertion that the game is intended for the teenage market. But the alternative hypothesis is that Atlus believes there is a huge desire in the 18-24 demographic for a game where players get to pretend to go back to high school and be popular. That, if true, is disturbing on a completely different axis.
The game is liberally larded with Jungian jargon, retrofitted into Japanese pop culture giant robot sensibilities. (This is a fairly common occurrence when East meets West; think of it as the inverse of Edward Said’s conception of Orientalism. Western cultural notions are often appropriated for anime for exotic flavor, e.g., Christianity is often used whenever a plot calls for a gothic milieu.)
In game terms, the protagonists fight (given-as-evil) “shadows” through a power called “persona”. When battling a shadow, the characters may take out a gun and shoot themselves in the head (extinguishing the ego?), thus summoning a masked spirit, or “persona”, who then whacks the shadow on the head a few times, or burns it, or freezes it, what have you. I’m only a few hours in, so I don’t know how the game’s plot will play out. In purely Jungian terms, the objective of the game is a bit perverse. One would properly describe the persona according to Jung as an outward-facing construct, while the shadow is a part of the self that exerts control subtly, albeit pervasively. Interactions with one’s shadow can be complex, but most would say that trying to simply overpower it by whacking it over the head will more likely lead to constant unhappiness, rather than self-discovery.
Self-discovery, though, seems less a concern of Persona 3 than does style. Teenagers have already grabbed on to Persona 3’s irresistable combination of high school angst, OCD collectability and guns with both hands: you can already find Persona 3 hentai (mildly or deeply pornographic comics) all over the net. I suppose I should be glad that the sexism in the game itself, while present, is not quite as bad as it could be.
Persona 3 is problematic commercial art. To be blunt, if I lived with a depressed teenager (aka “any teenager”), I would do everything in my power to prevent him or her from even learning of Persona 3’s very existence. That such an exercise would be futile is beside the point.
Difficult, challenging, or transgressive art is not something to be reviled. Just because I am troubled by the game’s central image is no reason to denigrate it. But whether the game’s creators intended it as challenging art or merely the cheap exploitation of grief is not a tangential question. It is the central question. I can admire love as an abstract ideal, and still be repulsed by the 30 year old man who gropes at a high school student. I admire the boldness and stark power of Persona 3’s visuals, but see behind those visuals a carelessly groping hand.
A hand that doesn’t care who it hurts on its way to your wallet.
Pete,
I don’t find the presence of Persona 3 Porn to be a compelling argument for the popularity or commonality of the game - the power of Rule 34 guarantees it.
That stated, the games in the Megaten series have always traded on this kind of shock value, and generally for no particularly good reason within the storyline.
I’ve played through the game a fair bit, and truth be told, I mostly found it tedious. It wasn’t a game that offended me like GoW because, after a while, the fact that the characters are using a fake gun to shoot themselves in the head is buried under the standard RPG silliness (oh look! a dog!) and the incredibly tedious dungeon gameplay. The people who designed these games assume that you don’t mind losing 4-5 hours of gameplay at a time.
There are interesting moments in the game, primarily connected with the social links - several of which are interesting and surprisingly melancholy, if relatively short-lived, but the central narrative is cookie-cutter JRPG/Anime stuff.
Let me annotate that.
I think it’s necessary for art to be powerful to make an impression, and I don’t think Persona makes that impression. Sure, you’re a silent young man who shoots himself in order to free the voices in his head and fight the monsters that only he and his friends can see, but the central gameplay is so inordinately tedious, as well as the enormous weeaboo factor in the localization (to be fair, you are playing a character who lives in Japan, but still), I seriously wonder about the games accessibility.
I found the first few hours in the random dungeons pretty slow going too. And it’s all the same old SMT creatures and fusing mechanics. We’ll see if it gets better.
I like the art though.
“But the alternative hypothesis is that Atlus believes there is a huge desire in the 18-24 demographic for a game where players get to pretend to go back to high school and be popular. That, if true, is disturbing on a completely different axis.”
There is a huge desire in the 18-24 (or even later) demographic for games where players get to pretend to go back to high school and be popular. Especially among those who would buy this game in both Japan and the US.
Um, sorry for another off-topic comment (feel free to obliterate), but now it’s your ATOM feed that is broken…
Cheers,
–Jonathan
It’s awesome how WordPress magically makes this stuff work so that I don’t have to worry about stupid XML minutiae.
Oh wait. IT DOESN’T.
That’s disgusting. How can any retailer sell such a horribly tasteless game with a clear conscience?
What about you get to the end of the game. The story is quite deep and thought-provoking. The save point can be accessed every time you go to the dorm and Tatarus, which is very often and not brutal (or whatever).
Many of your comments are very subjective.
Man, this sounds like senseless bashing that one does to an alien totally unknown to him.
Well, one can always talk things about something which they’ve ever barely known. Like they say, don’t judge a book by its cover.
Think out of the box, they may do it all without exact explanation. But that’s how human’s mind expands- by thinking of why things are so. All this time most people has been slacking of and would rather ask somebody who knows rather than thinking to get the answers. Not knowing they could be fooled, and be tricked to believe that good stuff are bad ones, and vice versa.
Besides, if you think this game is bad enough, take a look at the nature of the other games around you as deeply. You’ll surprise yourself of the hidden lies you’ll find. This game, it only makes things clearer.
And I don’t blame it on other publishers as well, games ought to be different. This we call, variation.
This sounds like some sort of concerned Soccer Mom wrote it
“I TELL YOU JACK THOMPSONS CORRECT ABOUT EVERYTHING GAMES ARE SATAN”
and what does pornography have to do with anything? Anyone who knows anything about Japanese animated pornography knows that EVERYTHING gets at least one hentai pic. If a games popular enough, a show, etc.
Hey, there are rule 34 pics of Kermit the Frog, I guess that’s a good enough argument against that satanic show. Cause, you know, the makers of the show drew those pi-OH WAIT A SEC HURR
Oh, and I find it freakin’ hilarious that I stumbled upon this page looking for P3 hentai
“The game also has a brutally punishing save system where you have to slog ahead for a long period of time in order to reach a save point.”
Um….what? There are two saving points that can easily be accessed. One is when you first enter Tartarus, second is in the dorm.
Anyway, this in itself sounds like any old bash. Yes, this game depicts suicide in many different senses. But still it is different. This game is not the only game that has messages deep within it, so I don’t know why this game in particular seems to be getting bashed every where I turn.
Look the way I see this is, it’s not the companies fault, it’s the parents who buy it for their kids. I mean, that’s the point of the M rating right?
On the subject of Hentai……..there is Hentai….for ALOT of things. Almost EVERY manga/anime that I look up art for….there has to be at least one hentai image. It’s something that cannot be stopped in my opinion.
[…] That has some interesting consequences. First, it means I tend to dream about whatever game I was last playing (perhaps this is why I was so hard on Persona 3). Second, it means that to a fairly good approximation, I can estimate how good a game is by how late I stay up. […]
I’m not going to argue much. I’m just going to point out that putting dating type sims into a game doesn’t make it for younger gamers. I’ve lived in Japan for awhile. I’ve noticed many things here. One of them is that…. dating sims are ussaully bought by the middle age range of men to older men. I’ve rarely if ever seen anyone below 20-22 buy a dating sim.
That being said. Japan does have a high suicide rate this is true(hell, I was in the front car of a train that had someone jump in front of it just yesterday) Not alot of gun related suicides though. It’s easy to buy guns but not ammo here. (Guns are in freakin hobby stores) So, that form of suicide probably wasn’t considered that big of a deal on this end.
The American me understands your arguments for that seriously wakatta. But, the Japanese me doesn’t really get it. (The part of my brain that thinks in Japanese when I speak Japanese)
As for save points. The games nothing. Personally I was never unfortunate enough to get killed while traversing the dungeon. I just always made it to the next lift went back to the first floor and saved(hell, you get all of your hp back that way anyways!)
Later if you play an extra 5 hours the games incrediably broken. Just get Lucifer and satan (Equip Lucifer he has Victory cry) You can kill everything including the last boss in one hit.
On a story point of view it was beautiful at points. I won’t say where but I shed a few tears. Then again, Japan seems to know what buttons to push to make me shed a few.
Welp. I’m tired and i’m running in the Ekiden sometime soon. So, i’m gone! Oyasuminasai!
This is cute.
While I don’t really Agree with the author on his standpoint, I find some of arguments abit lacking.
While it is true that such mediums generally inspire fan hentai, it is still Fan. I don’t think its fair to accuse the muse for insipring the artist. If it is so, then I believe that a great many of teenagers should be arrested for having improper thoughts on (Inser subjct here)
Another thought on the supposed violence, have you noticed that there are games like God of war and Gears of war? Chainsawing an enermy or depacitating a foe is still violence, it just imposed on an alien that is unfortuante to be a foe
I like to say more but then I’ll be spoilling the story for everyone so toddy tinks. And I want my cookie after this
Shake: I feel validated by your Jack Thompson reference. Way to not understand what I was saying.
Jonna: Wow, you sure are in Japan. Yep. In any event, I actually think the plot of the game in general, and the use of Jungian archetypes in particular, is particularly well done. That’s severable from the ethical questions I raise, except to the extent that if the game was clumsy and ham-handed, I probably wouldn’t even be talking about it.
Lord Na Nat: Implicit in my article is the belief that depicting the suicide of teenagers in a game targeted at teenagers is qualitatively different than other depictions of violence. If you’re arguing that all depictions of violence are functionally equivalent, I think you’re mistaken.
Ahem. Let me address this article as I love this game, and I just turned 20. First, I have a theory pertaining to the Evoker, or gun as you decided to call it, I believe that it does not actually shoot a bullet or anything for that matter. I believe the very thought of putting what looks like a gun to your head and pulling the trigger is what evokes the Persona, hence the name for the item-Evoker. Anyway, it can’t be called suicide in my opinion because there is no blood. Second, as I said I just turned 20, which means that I just got out of my teens, and I see no reason why even a depressed teenager couldn’t play this game, providing they could tell reality from fantasy, I know because I was a depressed teen. (Now I’m a depressed adult haha.) Third, sure it is kind of boring running through the levels of Tartarus, the dungeon, but thats not what I find fun, I’m more into the Social Link part of the game, however there is some good to be gained from leveling in the dungeon, especially to avoid experience farming aka grinding, right before the full moon.
I’m also glad that other people have picked up on the Jung references in the game, the Persona especially remind me of his theory of the Shadow, but as the enemies are called Shadows they, for obvious reasons, couldn’t use the namesake and so called it instead Persona(e).
And I suppose I’ll address the hentai as well. To start a Bill Hicks quote, “…no one knows what pornography is. Supreme Court says that pornography is ‘any act that has no artistic merit and causes sexual thought.’” The way I see it, since the hentai is usually fan created, it does have artistic merit. Would you look at the Venus de Milo and say it has no artistic merit? I doubt it. Anyway, the point is you can’t stop hentai, or any “pornography” for that matter, because its human nature, we find sex pleasing and even a substitute for sex-such as pornography-is pleasing to us.
Anyway, as I stated at the beginning, I love this game, and am no closer to suicide than any normal person would be.
As for save points. The games nothing. Personally I was never unfortunate enough to get killed while traversing the dungeon. I just always made it to the next lift went back to the first floor and saved(hell, you get all of your hp back that way anyways!)
I do the same thing, although I have been unfortunate enough to die. But I normally just run to the boss floor and warp back down to the first level and save then warp back up.
[Comment deleted by editor according to the grammar and spelling rule laid out here.]
[Comment deleted by the editor according to the grammar and spelling rule laid out here.]
Perhaps the most dangerous thing about feeling suicidal is that other people treat the sufferer like a walking contagion. Long ago, when I was twelve, I recall having the mother of two sympathetic daughters tell me never to come near her family again. The reason: that I had confessed to contemplating suicide. I hadn’t done anything else — she was simply afraid my depression was contagious.
I used to have a friend with Borderline Personality Disorder. People with BPD are often poster-victims for neglected suicide risk. Until recently, they were the most common psychiatric patients to be consigned to a revolving door of referrals: because the recovery rate is quite low, most professional shrinks didn’t want to come near them. Mental health pros were interested in maintaining a decent success ratio. You want to talk about consigning teens to the graveyard? Think less about controversial dark games and more about professionals who deny teens help. Think about “positive” parents and teachers who tell despairing teens to get over it.
For many, dark music, poetry and games rarely trigger suicidal thoughts. On the contrary: those confirm that others have had similar thoughts and, therefore, the sufferer isn’t alone. Dark art becomes as consoling as the writings of St. John of the Cross: Despair at nothingness, at the “dark night of the soul,” presupposes a second stage of redemption. Considering that possibility can be more positive for sufferers than is commonly thought.
When I would dwell on dark thoughts as a kid, I wasn’t provoked by someone in a cartoon holding a gun to his own head. What upset me was the idea that *no one else* had thought of holding a gun to his head: That everyone else was happy while I felt miserable. The other day on television, I saw an interview with a woman who’d tried to jump off a bridge but was grabbed by an officer at the last moment: The thing that had set her off was hearing her mother say, “Snap out of it. You’re just having a bad day.”
Which brings me back to Persona 3. In my weakest childhood moments, this game wouldn’t have been a danger to me, but it would have been seen that way by people who treated suicidal thoughts as an infectious disease. Those people, not the game, would have been the true danger.
Had I played the game as a kid, I’d have been grateful for the matter-of-fact tone of the demon-summoning technique. I’d have appreciated the unstated connection between having to be someone you’re not in high school and banishing the limitations of your own personality by conjuring someone stronger.
I’d also have appreciated the way the game talks you through the nightmare of high school: This isn’t Buffy the Vampire Slayer, where school authorities consider you a potential delinquent or straight-up homicidal criminal. It’s a game that reassures you’ll get through the private hell of coping with demons (to be faced solo or with the few who comprise your team) and the pony show of public school. It says you’ll come out stronger for having suffered through it.
If I’d played Persona 3 as a kid, I’d have learned a few valuable lessons about interacting with other people, about what works and what doesn’t in social contexts. Far from considering it a danger, I view P3 as beneficial to the depressed. The real danger is being told not to think or talk about sadness, until the despairing person feels trapped and trivialized. Intolerant people drive teens to kill themselves, not the team that created Persona 3.
I suck at RPGs but had no issues whatsoever with the save system of Persona 3. I haven’t found an easier save system beyond playing old games using emulators that allow saves at will.
Far from being another “typical SMT RPG”, this one addressed many complaints about earlier games. Persona 3 covers new ground in terms of the save points, integration of a Sim-style social game to create variety, and the voluntary aspect of choosing to fight at given times: The old complaint, that the user can’t turn a corner or stand still for twenty seconds without being forced into battle, doesn’t apply. P3 is in fact the easiest RPG I’ve ever played. It is a source of consolation, light catharsis and synthetic friendships, not bleak despair.
Finally: For some of us, the tone and imagery of SMT are not “sensationalistic” but reassuringly familiar. Some of us prefer Billie Holiday to Louis Armstrong, Shiva to Lord Krishna, nocturnal walks through empty cities to afternoon romps in a verdant park. Every expression of a dark aesthetic does not necessarily result in tragedy or even a lapse of taste. There is costumed black metal and there are plays by Samuel Beckett. There is Marilyn Manson and there is Mahler. There is Joe Coleman and there is Hieronymus Bosch.
I forget something you hardly find the save point in Tartarus?Are you a new gamer or something…It need me less than 15 minute to jump to other device and save my game…And I’m still the slowest in my friends…They only need 3 days toplay it to the end and I need a week…Maybe you should try the easy mode so you could die and alive again for 10 or 12 times(Sorry I forget how many)
There are two types of people in the world: people who have lives, and people who think that waiting 15 minutes to be able to save a game isn’t that long.
You, PersonaLover, are the second type of person.
I will say that I agree over the save point issue.
During the 2nd “ordeal” in the game, I did not have enough levels to beat the Emperor or Emperess, and they killed me. Because the last time you could save the game was one day prior, I had to start again from a day ago, and I had to go back through maybe 20-30 minutes of ( speeding through, mind you ) dialogue and pointless running around that I had already done. The game doesn’t give you an option to skip all of this, so it was mandantory to continue.
All this, without being able to save once, because there was no break in the cutscenes to use the Dorm Lounge, or even the entrance to Tartarus. I was lucky that my PS2 never overheats, because I had to leave it *several times* amidst all that.
I was finally able to save after the boss battle and all the dialogue that followed, but it was a ridiculous amount of time to wait to save the game.. Well over 15 minutes, I assure you.
Peterb:
It seems to me that your fifteen minutes’ save rule is being applied inconsistently, since some of the games you’ve liked in the past have had similar points in their progress — particularly RPGs. Even games like Ico and Okami don’t allow you to save whenever you like in the beginning. Besides, you’re also denigrating nearly every survival horror game in the process, including RE 0-4, Fatal Frame 1-3 and the Silent Hill series. Most classic horror games tend to have wide-spaced save points throughout, whereas the battle you complain of occurs exactly once in Persona, and probably doesn’t come into play for a good number of gamers — I’m not questioning your aptitude but rather your wider application of a moment of bad luck. I myself will freely admit to being a late and clumsy gamer, yet I have not experienced the save issue of which you complain.
As for your “life vs. no life” distinction: I find it startling that the most common dismissal of gamers by non-gamers — that they have “no lives” and are willing to “waste time” playing games — is being used by you, a gamer, against others. I’d have thought you of all people would defend the commonly disputed value of gamers’ second lives. Suggesting that entire strata of games are *a waste of time for every user* due to remote save points is unkind. Isn’t it possible that your most significant objections to Persona 3 lie elsewhere, and that it is perhaps unnecessary to denounce one of “the two types of people in the world”?
I’d have to agree with the last poster. I’m in the middle of playing this game, and while it may be standard jrpg fare, it is well done and the integration of story and gameplay through the social links is an interesting development.
dude, i’m a teenager and i play this game on a daily basis, and as much as it might surprise you, i have never had the urge to go and shoot myself in the head. i could understand your concern if there was some blood involved, but since there is absolutely no gore involved i don’t understand how you can so strongly criticize the game, also considering that you’re only a few hours into the game yourself. therefore i see this as an empty argument. try finishing the game before writing something like this, and don’t assume that every teenager is as mentally unstable as to go shoot themselves after seeing it in a game, as you think. period.
~sighs~
I’m 22, big fan of the game. My freind is 24, also plays the game. Frankly, I can’t see how this would appeal to people much under the age of 16, which at that age they should be able to tell the diffrence between reality and fantasy, and if they can’t, they shouldn’t be in the gene pool anyways. The story is very complex, and entertaining, and a suprising amount of depth for a video game. As for the fact there’s porn of it, that comment isn’t realative, as a previous commenter said, there’s porn of evreything. Yes, the image of a kid blowing his brains out is very disturbing, that’s part of what makes shin megami tensei games so interesting though, they’re darker bent. Next thing you know, you’ll be saying how Nocturne promotes devil worshiping by letting you side with Lucifer.
Hmmm, other points to make.
Save system, not broken. You can head back to Tartarus’ main floor within 30 miniutes if you run past the enemies, and it gives you the option to warp back before every forced boss. Also you can save in the “real world” if you so choose after 5 or 10 min. of talking to people. I work a full time job at wal-mart (that’s 48 hours a week) and I still had time to beat the game twice, even with sleeping 8 hours a day and leaving my house during the weekend.
i think that persona 3 is absolutely the best game i have ever played. in fact i am playing it right now and have bee for the past 26 hours…
i have played through loads of rpgs and i am a big fan of final fantasy. and i know im gonna get alot of crap from this comment, but i think this game truly surpasses that of any final fantasy game. i recommend that you all go out and purchase a copy!
-Sandmann-
[…] I finished the main storyline of the first Disgaea game, and then switched to the second game. It’s time to talk about it a bit. But first, let me tell you a little something I’ve noticed about our web traffic. A few months ago I wrote a fairly in-depth and critical review of Persona 3 called Ferris Bueller’s Day Offing Himself. Tweaking the nose of the world a little bit, I gave the article the slug “Persona 3 Hentai”, because of a throwaway comment late in the review. […]
I have some disagreements. for instance you say “developed as an excuse”. I wonder if you have ever programed besides web design. programing is hard and quality programing like in this game is expensive. so is getting writers of this caliber and artists and matierials. I don’t think that any game this well made was any type of “excuse”.
Secondly I’m recently out of high school and I belive that my prom was one of the best days of my life. Therefore, yes I belive that many people would love to go back to high school especially when just out and facing the world and all it’s demons. There is nothing wrong with wanting to expeirance the best time of your life again (so long as they don’t become hikikomori)
finaly porn, I have in the past visited porn sites and I can tell you that they have every thing incuding that wierd pink haired chick from the E-surance comercials. so if having a porn makes something evil then you should toss your final fantasy, Starcraft, all Disney cartoons, and any anime or manga.
Oh, yeah I forgot in the phrase “Persona 3 hentai (mildly or deeply pornographic comics)” the word hentai is incorect the word should be Doushini (Hentai indicates male female paring, Yaoi male male, and Yuri female feamle)
I hope you don’t censor me for saying this, but if you’re going to delete people’s comments because they descend into ad hominem, then perhaps you shouldn’t be doing the exact same thing. You aren’t going to get people to read your next article by disparaging them when they disagree with you about save systems, nor will you win sympathy by characterizing suicide survivors who stopped by to make thoughtful arguments as de facto perverts in search of grainy derivative hentai. Judging from the responses posted, most of your new traffic wouldn’t google, care about or remember the artwork you’ve mentioned. You seem to be placing far too much faith in the idea that people in search of graphic hentai would bother reading a game review, let alone, responding in detail.
The reason for the prodigious number of comments is this: a lot of people happen to like Persona 3. The game is far more popular than you realize and has also won awards. Self-righteous ire over P3’s conjuring technique is something that really annoys fans — you could call it a *triggering* issue. I myself was googling Persona 3, which I’d been playing, and saw your deliberately confrontational title. It bothered me just enough to cause me to read what you had to say. Your uncharitable dismissal of fans and respondents disappointed me beyond the article itself, and made me respond, if only to ask you to show more respect.
I think you’re on shaky ground attacking the morals of the people who created P3. First, you’re not in a position to judge strangers’ unstated motives for creating art (and here’s where we might differ — I consider games works of art as well as entertainment). Second, the image that disturbs you is clearly meant for the enormous number of players who don’t view the image that way. Third, you’d be on firmer ground attacking Rule of Rose, another game that was misconstrued as immoral. Very few liked Rule of Rose (though I’ll admit to loving the dissonant classical soundtrack) — but even in that case, faux-moral criticisms were misguided. The criticisms should have focused on dodgy game mechanics, not invented motives and implications that stemmed from confusion, unfamiliarity and ad hominem barking.
I also disagree with the idea that soulless greed drives the people who script and program controversial games. I would argue it’s likelier they find developing such games cathartic — just as Wilde did writing Salome — if the statement didn’t, again, involve ascribing sentiments and motives to total strangers.
If your dismissive comments about the traffic from your P3 review are any indication, you seem unaware that presumptions of a web content hierarchy are as misleading as those of individual entitlement. Some of the people whom you’ve condescend to pigeonhole might well be award-winning editors and writers who happened to stop by because of the subject. I can verify that’s true in at least one case.
JLN,
If I was deleting comments based solely because they were ad hominem there would be far fewer comments on this thread. Rather, I’ve only deleted those comments whose atrocious spelling and grammar make them unpleasant to read. That’s the standard here.
I fundamentally disagree with your premise that I am “not in a position to judge strangers’ unstated motives for creating art.” As both a consumer and critic of course I am in a position to judge works of art — or commerce — and to opine or hypothesize about the motives of the creators. In fact, that’s one of the central questions that arises when faced with problematic commercial art: why this? Why did the creators choose to create this work, rather than something else? Why these images? Why this theme?
Now, one can of course come to different conclusions about the answers to these questions. I conclude that Persona 3’s theme was chosen largely because of cynicism and fashion. Others conclude that it is a subtle and incisive Jungian analysis tool that helps teenagers survive their own personal demons. I don’t criticize anyone who reaches a different answer. I do, however, criticize those, like yourself, who suggest that it is somehow improper, illegitimate, or wrong to even ask these questions. If you indeed consider games to be art, and not simply entertainment, then questions like these are not merely permissible. They are necessary.
Stepping away from the questions of art, and moving back into the realm of mere entertainment, I will continue to disparage anyone, anywhere, anytime, who suggests that it is even remotely acceptable for a game to make the player wait 15 to 30 minutes before they can save their game. That’s simply not a debatable point: save systems like that are pathological, and anyone who supports or encourages developers to create them is the enemy of all game players everywhere.
Thanks for your comments.
I love this game. It’s really pathetic to go ahead and bash a game that you don’t really know the full of. I think that EVERYONE knows that a gun can’t make a persona/spirit or whatever come out of your head. The game gives you a warning not to play on coincidences and events related to anything in your life that can trigger an emotional rage. Sure, there may be “dating” and hanging out with people in the game, but it’s not there just to look pretty. The Arcanas help you with your Personas. About the 15 minute save periods… Um, I think your game is broken. It’s quite easy to find the save points, and I usually sit their for 30 seconds (not even that) waiting for it save. It’s only difficult if you’re in Tartartus and can’t find the portals. About the porn thing, I really don’t care. Every cartoon/game has a porno somewhere. The game is rated “M” for a reason. It can be violent, yes, but at that it’s all fiction.
“I’m only a few hours in, so I don’t know how the game’s plot will play out.”
Then don’t write a review. You should at least get to a good point in the game where you can make a thorough comment. Many people who have bought this game and talked about it actually think it’s anti-suicide. Just letting you know ^.^
> It’s quite easy to find the save points, and I usually sit their for 30
> seconds (not even that) waiting for it save. It’s only difficult if you’re
> in Tartartus and can’t find the portals.
That’s precisely my point. “It’s easy and convenient, except for when it is a royal pain” isn’t a stellar defense.
I’m happy that you liked the game. I didn’t. That is not to say that there is nothing good about it, or that I’m surprised that people find it compelling. It is compelling, while at the same time being problematic. To borrow a phrase, I think that Persona 3 is like rotten mackerel by moonlight — it both shines and stinks.
Regarding your comments about the legitimacy of writing a review, we’ll simply have to disagree. If I were reviewing a restaurant, and they served me a plate of rotten mackerel, I wouldn’t feel compelled to choke down the whole plate before warning other people that I had a bad meal.
As a young man in high school myself, and a quite avid fan of the shock, play, and down right everything factor of the Megaten series, I found this particular installment to be quite fufilling on the story level, and if anything, lacking in the art department when compared to Nocturne which was quite lush in landscape and detail.
I can wholeheartedly take into consideration where you are coming from when mentioning the underlying feeling that the game capitalizes on scuicide by explaining the situation with teenagers in Japan these days. However, if anything, the obscurities that seem to take those of intellect and non aback, if anything in my mind, MASK the true depth of the ocean it hides beneath itself, rather then being the true intention.
A treasure trove of metaphors can surface, walking hand-in-hand with themes from the game.
For example: Shooting oneself to unleash a persona.
It’s killing the bodily facade of your basic existence to show your true will in manifestation . In actuality, it’s like using your pure will to fight for you.
Turning beliefe in oneself into an awesome power coupled with whom they truly are as a person inside.
Sevral issues can speak for that one as later in the game, faith is mentioned by some of the characters as their reason to fight becomes nothing short of their will to live, either with reason or to find reason as believers in themselves.
I also believe that the main character’s ability to produce multiple personas speaks for itself as well.
As the main character in my mind is a reflection of the player, real human beings do not have the luxury (or are saved by the curse) of having a set extremist identities like those we see all too often in stories of all kinds.
The fact that you posses multitudes of creatures speaks that as you grow, whom you are as a person will always change with every moment. It is up to you, how the character grows and shapes with each passing second as it is up to you in the life you lead, and I hope you love.
Gameplay? Oh god all the enemies were like, the same. Bosses were fun at first, yet then failed to be a challenge afterward towards the second half of the game’s year. Saving was all too easy, ranking s. links was amazing. Underlying own tidbits of the world around you’s beliefes of all things from parental ties to coping with dying.
Also reflecting their that one’s will can carry with it the will and affection of those whose lives played significance in yours as yours in theirs.
This game plays strongly on will, faith, friendship, and inevibilaty (Or however you spell it. Ha, I don’t do much academicly, my apologies).
And althoughit’s morals seem to hide a darker picture,
I belive under that darker picture, lies an ocean of idealogy and possibility to chew on.
So the next time you see your friends, give them a hug please.
I’ll be really quick on this.
As a persona fan myself it is obvious were I’ll stand on this issue. My personal basis to art; be it a game, be it a movie, or be it music; Is that it should never be banned in any form. Art is Art. It’s a piece of something left for people to explore and find the true beauty of. And in the case of persona 3 I think it’s safe to say that it wasn’t deliberately malicious in it’s art. The authors are expressing themselves in the form of something (suicide) that few would dare venture into.
If someone was really stupid enough to kill themselves over an expression of ones art it isn’t our place to blame the creator of the art, But the environment in which the kid was raised. Whats a catalyst to suicide for one person is a light in dark times to another.
That is the beauty of art…
Mr. Peterb,
If you can’t find the portals in tartarus then either you are bad enough at this game that you ought to just hang it up already, or either your game or mine is mis-programed. I have not yet been stuck in Tartarus but once when I just barely escaped being wiped out by Death because I tryed to fight. I finised the game now and belive that if it happend so often I would have had more trouble in this area.
Thank You,
Jack Warn
I swear, games are a work of art. It’s an expression of the creators personal self onto a canvas. Art is a powerful medium, and can touch and change the way that many people think. Just because someone sees a peice of art that has something to do with suicide, doesn’t mean they want everyone to go outside with a gun at night and kill themselves.
>”I swear, games are a work of art. It’s an expression of the creators personal self onto a canvas.”
Man, in that case John Romero must be one fucked up guy.
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I was going to make a sarcastic reply, but then I noticed that you posted this on September 2007.
However, I’d like to point out that this game is about as much about suicide as Hello Kitty is about blue dogs from hell mauling innocent kittens.
I think you get the message.
Just go get hit by a bus, nobody likes you
Hell hath no fury like that of people searching google images for “persona 3 hentai.”
I like the way that instead of taking the time to understand the game you have done strait to the “YOU SHOOT YOUR SELF IN THE HEAD!!!! THIS IS EVIL I TELLS YA!!!!!!”. You should probably note that it’s a pretty good game, in fact great game, and even a little understanding and some common sense would tell you that P3 and suicide are completely different.
As for the hentai, I suppose your can’t control what people do in there spare time, you seam to like ranting, they like to live (draw) their fantasies, Live with it.
I should post referrer logs next to each commenter. That would be fun.
I disagreed with this review completely. But I will not hate you as a person, nor will I hate your beliefs, nor will I hate your thoughts and feelings. I may not like them, but I am more than a few degrees away from hating them.
As mentioned above this game is not a game about suicide. I don’t even think it’s a game about psychology. I think it’s a game about people. Given horrifying situation and a bizzare power to fight it it talks about ordinary people. The core of the game is about people. Tartarus is important to the story and it is the way in which the characters are brought together, the shadows are important and are another way the characters are brought together, but neither of them are what the game is about in my mind.
Death is something important in the game, but I don’t think death is glorified. A major character dies over the course of the game and people deal with the ramifications. The death isn’t glorified but treated realistically. People cry, people are hurt emotionally, people get angry, all very realistic things, and none of them very happy things.
I can see how you might think that the game is a glorification of takings ones own life, but I look at it and see something different. Maybe it’s the context of playing through the game several times, but I don’t see it that way. I see it as nothing more than an eye-grabber. A trailer. To judge the whole thing by a trailer is seem silly to me.
Lastly you take a couple of cheap shots which I think should be addressed. For the save system to each his own, but to call anyone who doesn’t like anytime saving a person with no life seems rather like an ad hominem attack. For the hentai content I’m afraid there’s porn for everything on the internet. It’s called rule 34, to say a game is bad for the porn is to say there is no good game.
Spare us the moral superiority act, please.
1. Google “Persona 3″. Your hentai image is at the top, which is why you’re seeing all of those referrer entries in your webserver logs.
2. My first thought: “ftw, Google is linking to hentai stores in their top images now? that seems like it’s against their own terms and just a little messed up”.
3. Clicked to validate above impression. Relieved to see that it was a blog.
4. Became similarly annoyed with the suicide crusade contained within, but others have beaten that horse to death already and the only thing I will add is that there is porn of just about every fantasy game and anime series ever released. It takes an incredibly unpopular series *not* to have it, so complaining about it being a source of porn is just a little deluded.
(meant wtf instead of ftw, this is not a pro-porn endorsement)
It’s as if I have, entirely by accident, become some sort of Tarot-like God of Search Engine Optimization.
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Omni: I’m willing to agree that there’s nothing wrong with many people who like anime porn; de gustibus non est disputandum. But we’ll have to disagree about people who complain about save-anywhere. They are the enemy, and they must be destroyed. That may be flippant, but it’s also true.
Thank you for your thoughtful comments.
I think there’s a fair argument to be made that the game is deeper than the images it exploits, and I think you make that argument very well. As I’ve tried to stress repeatedly in the comments here — apparently lost on those who keep insisting I want to “ban” the game — if the game weren’t compelling I probably wouldn’t be writing about it. At the same time, I don’t think it’s quite fair to accept your dismissal of the game’s trailer and, indeed, central image as unimportant because it is merely an “eye grabber.” It is indeed because it is an “eye grabber” that I think it merits discussion. This is the public face — the persona, if you’ll pardon the pun — of the game. I’m not judging the whole game by that image. I’m judging the choice of images and their use. I think that’s fair.
“Only people without responsibility – kids – can tolerate such broken save systems.”
It was at this point I realized this article is a joke.
… Right?
Don’t quote me on this, but I think what he’s getting at is that people with better things to be doing don’t enjoy being forced to waste their time. I mean, before I started earning a living I was quite happy to walk back and forth in the kitchen every morning filling my bowl one corn flake at a time, but I just don’t have that many hours to play with anymore.
The only thing transgressive is the implication that a single game title which “glorifies” suicidal actions is more morally reprehensible than entire genres of games which glorify the outright murder of others.
Japanese RPGs, or JRPGs, occupy a very singular (albeit large) niche within the gaming public; this is why Atlus, the publisher of P3, categorically makes almost all of its titles limited releases, so as not to oversaturate the market and come out with a loss. But first- and third-person shooters, with their entire gameplay built upon the wholesale slaughter of others, are inarguably the most popular games within the Western world. Don’t the Kane & Lynches, GTAs, Manhunts, Condemneds, et al. deserve far more flak for their wide-ranging impact on impressionable minds than one niche title with a single shocking gameplay conceit? Or have we become so desensitized to mass murder in our entertainment media that the connotation of suicide is far more appalling than the widespread killing of innocents?
To call Persona 3 a “cheap exploitation of grief” when placed against the blood-soaked background of shooters where more gore equates to “more visceral” and “thrilling” action… well, to me that seems rather problematic.
Actually, balanceofpower, I criticize those games as well. Even if I didn’t, though, your argument isn’t correct. The creators of one piece of art don’t get to use “but this other reprehensible thing exists, too!” as an excuse for their own creation. Ethics is not a zero-sum game. We are each, all of us, responsible for our own decisions.
Persona 3 does not encourage suicide. It’s a game. Let’s remember that people. Quit over analyzing everything. If you’re so weak minded to be influenced personally by something like this, then you need some help.
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ok i’m sick and tired of people trying to blame all the worlds evil on video
games “doom and Postal caused columbine'’ or “grand theft auto caused 9/11″
(yes i’ve actually heard someone say that” games don’t make people violent
people who go into a school and kill everyone, steel cars, rob banks, or
commit suicide will do it regardless of if they are playing condemned:
criminal origins or barbie horse adventure (probably more likely with the
latter) people have just realized that video games, movies, comics, etc…
can be a great scapegoat when they don’t want to take responsibility for
themselves especially parents if you raise your kids right they wont turn
into killers if they are just twisted anyway despite your best efforts (
witch can happen some people are just born wrong it’s like being left handed
the right match-up in dna and you’ve got a psycho) then notice the warning
signs if your kid rips the wings off flies or shoots his bb gun at the
neighbors dog then chances are he’s gonna turn out violent…
enough ranting about that my point here is first of i’m 22 so i’m smack in
the middle of the 18 to 24 demographic and i love this game so the m rating
was not just to avoid law suits. second i was a depressed teenager i thought
about killing myself often and to be honest if there was anything that kept
me going and stopped me from killing myself it was violent games and movies
and depressing “goth” music the music gave me something to relate to let me
know i wasn’t alone in the way i felt, the games were a way for me to vent
my much pent up anger: the jock at school took my comicbook made a nerd joke
and got the whole class to laugh at me. i just go home put in soldier of
fortune and blow some heads off maybe even pretend it’s him and all the
people laughing at me let the inner beast out let it rampage then turn the
game off have my frustration delt with and prepare for the next day.
now i could have easily brought a knife to school and walked up behind him
and jabbed it deep into his neck but i didn’t and it’s definitely not
because my mom wouldn’t let me play duke nukem for me it was the more
violent the game the better and i have yet to go on a kill crazy rampage
while drinking doing drugs and stealing cars, and if i was going to kill
myself it wouldn’t have been because of a character in my game did it it
would have been if some douche bag who can’t handle people enjoying
something he doesn’t like passing a law to ban all the games i love.
and second the rating system is there for a reason and i totally agree with
it of course i think that an 8 year old should not play god of war and thats
why parents shouldn’t buy that game for there kids now i don’t see to much
of a difference in a 17 year old playing it or an 18 year old but i do
realize that if you drop it it will just become “well then why not 16.. well
why not 15″and so on and so forth.
other than that if you don’t like a violent game/movie/whatever ignore it
walk past and leave it on the shelf don’t buy it for your kid until you
believe they can handle it intelligently or they reach the age they can buy
it themselves i think Todd McFarlane said it best “you don’t bitch at the
grocer for having food on the shelf you don’t like you just let someone else
buy the dill pickle flavored chips”
in other words violent games not for you? do you have a problem telling
entertainment from reality? then leave those games to those of us who can
think for themselves and go play the games you enjoy.
i won’t ban your barbie horse adventure game just because i don’t want to
play it
I’ve read the article and all the comments here. I am thoroughly amused by all the misunderstandings. This is fanboyism, not the worst of it but still ‘icky’. Leave it to them to find and squash all negative or non-positive criticisms.
“you don’t bitch at the grocer for having food on the shelf you don’t like you just let someone else buy the dill pickle flavored chips”
This isn’t the same situation, video games are a medium that are seen by some for kids only, therefore games romanticizing suicide, misogyny and murder aren’t just going to be left with a “live and let live” philosophy. No one sees chips as an attempt to show kids murder, sex and crime.
I generally like the Persona series, at least I find nothing in it which disturbs me to the point of no return. I do believe that the suicide imagery was made to turn heads not to express ‘art’ nor to connect to suicidal individuals. It’s a marketing gimmick, I think of it in the same vein I think of scantily clad females that should be wearing full body armor. I like GTA, but I’m not fanboy enough to excuse the gratuitous amounts of unnecessary violence. So I think it is indeed an exploitation of grief, however I just don’t care and just want to be entertained.
Parents, ultimately, should be one to decide whether there tween should play God of War or anything else. And waiting 15 minutes to SAVE is unacceptable, those who suggest that others ‘deal with it’ should be considered enemies of gaming.
Re: Porn
Rule 34; If it it exist, there is porn of it. No exceptions.
Rule 35; If no porn of it can be found, it will be created.
well yea of course chips and games aren’t the same but still the people who think games are just for kids need to pull their head out of their ass. there’s no reason we should be punished for their ignorance. they wouldn’t have m rated games that you have to be 18 to buy if no one over 18 played games, that makes no sense. and if parents would spend more time actually talking to there kids instead of bashing the things they love and trying to blame everyone else for what happens we’d see alot less school shootings and things of that nature, i mean seriously when your child is depressed that means he/she needs help even if it is just someone to talk to.
the saving thing yea it sucks having to wait fifteen minutes to save but anyone who has ever played an rpg should be expecting that look at every final fantasy game, every star ocean, blue dragon, xenogears/xenosaga, all the most famous and greatest turn based rpgs are set up the same way you have to get to specific save points/or be on the world map to save. these games are made for people who are gonna put time into gaming there’s no reason to pick up an rpg if you don’t plan to play for at least 45 minutes at a time thats what action games/fighting games/shooters are for… hell you even have to get to a save point in gta. so saying someone is an enemy to gamers because they think you should deal with having to actually play the game is incorrect if your a gamer you know how it works and take the bad with the good.
i mean look at the person who wrote the original article he’s on here bashing the game when he’s only played a few hours of a 40+ hour game apparently he didn’t get to into the story they explain the guns later but it ruins the dramatic effect if you tell someone oh he wont get hurt then have him shoot himself in the head thats bad storytelling you want people to wonder why you want people to be concerned that the character might be in danger thats the same as reading the last chapter in a book first it ruins it there’s no surprise no suspense you know what happens so why bother
oh one other point I’d like to make is that just because the characters in a game/movie/tv show/ book series happens to be in high school doesn’t mean that it’s targeting that age group. i’m 22 and i just watched no county for old men and loved it and i know i’m no where near tommy lee jones’ age it’s just a story. the book ender’s game is about grade school aged kids but that book is way to mature for grade school students to read and understand. seriously can you honestly tell me you’ve never enjoyed a story about someone who is older/younger than you?
I hope that you write a final conclusion to this after you have finished the game because I am NEARLY done with it and most of what you say about this game i disagree on.
Peter,
I also notice that you don’t like the save system. Obviously you have not played many JRPG type games because I have a collection of them and it is VERY rare to find a good JRPG that doesn’t have a save system like this. Infact pretty much ALL of the JRPG’s that I own have a save system like this. The P3 save system is far more lenient then those other games do.
“I will continue to disparage anyone, anywhere, anytime, who suggests that it is even remotely acceptable for a game to make the player wait 15 to 30 minutes before they can save their game. That’s simply not a debatable point: save systems like that are pathological, and anyone who supports or encourages developers to create them is the enemy of all game players everywhere.”
They are not pathological, I’m not trying to sound mean but you probably just die a lot and can’t take it so you get mad at the game for not letting you save every 10 seconds. The Final Fantasy series have save points even farther apart then in P3 but you don’t attack those games? And the developers who create games with those kinds of save systems certainly are not enemies to all gamers everywhere. I enjoy the fact that I have enough skill to go 10 minutes without dieing in a game.
Oh and btw, I just searched “persona 3″ and this came up. Wasn’t looking for hentai.
Michaels,
I’ve played many JRPGs in my time. That most of them have broken save systems doesn’t make the systems any less broken.
I don’t know what sort of life you lead, but I don’t lead the sort of life where I can tell reality “Wait 10 minutes until I get to a save point.” It has nothing to do with skill. It has to do with the fact that a properly designed software product can be interrupted or suspended at a moment’s notice, and only a brain-damaged and broken product can not be.
Just because you enjoy an abusive relationship with your software doesn’t mean that the rest of us should have to suffer for it.
-peterb
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Peter,
Well then maybe you should not play games then? Speaking as a gamer if you can’t take 10 minutes to sit down and play a game, especially an RPG which are supposed to be deeper, more complex and time consuming then other genre’s then why play them at all? Why play any game? It’s just a bit confusing when you say things like this because you review games but then, according to your previous statements, it seems like you can’t find any time to play the game because reality is constantly calling for you attention. Also, if you play a game for just 10-15 minutes and have to suddenly leave then it’s not that big of a deal, especially in RPG’s where things take more time. If you went an hour without running into a save point then that would be a different story because if you die then all that progress would be lost. I hope you understand what I mean. And you never answered my Final Fantasy question.
Sorry, the above comment is Michaels but somehow I put your name instead. My fault
Michaels,
Why would I not play games just because some games are poorly designed? That makes no sense.
You didn’t actually ask me a question about the Final Fantasy games. Instead you asserted that I don’t “attack” them.
First, this shows some confusion: I’m not “attacking” Persona 3. I’m critiquing it. The idea that any negative criticism is an “attack” is, unfortunately, a common misconception among fans of gaming.
Second, we have criticized the Final Fantasy games. You’d have known that if you’d bothered to read anything we’ve written about them.
But thirdly, even if we loved the Final Fantasy games so much that we wanted to be making sweet love to them, always that would not somehow magically make your favorite game du jour immune from criticism. Criticism doesn’t work that way. Works of art are evaluated partially in the context of similar works, and partially on their own.
Hope that helps.
I understand more of where you are coming from now and I actually did try to find more of what you wrote about other games but I had some trouble because of the titles you gave some of your reviews but when I said “why not play any of them…” I actually didn’t mean to not play games I was just saying it to make a point like if someone said for example that they don’t like Italian food but they live in Italy so they have to eat it. Very bad example but you know what I mean. I read what you said when talking about bioshock and how you just can’t help the fact that you want to save a lot so I guess there would be no point in arguing with someone who has it programed into them because I do stuff like that also. But I would still like to maybe see a review of this game after you have beaten it.
btw, do you take game review requests or do you play games and review what you just happen to pick up? Even though we disagree on save systems (and Persona 3) I like how you review.
We’ve gotten the odd review copy of some small games but for the most part we just rant about games we buy.
Savepoint systems tend to punish people who have limited play time for whatever reason. I can tolerate them, but that does not make them less stupid.
Although Persona 3 requires you to shoot your own head, you shouldn’t be pushing the blame of suicide rates on this game.
> Although Persona 3 requires you to shoot your own head, you shouldn’t be
> pushing the blame of suicide rates on this game.
Can you read? Did you read the article you’re commenting on? Where, exactly, did I blame high suicide rates on Persona 3?
If you keep jerking your knee that hard, you’re going to pull a muscle.
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> Although Persona 3 requires you to shoot your own head
Best opening gambit ever.
Although Persona 3 requires you to shoot your own head…
…it is not concerning anything suicidal.
And to be frank, this is one of the games that don’t require you to grind endlessly for hours. It is an excellent form of strategy, as is with games like Valkyrie Profile 2 and others.
Interestingly, on savepoint systems, Valkyrie Profile 2 is more tedious than Persona 3, especially when you don’t have the time to keep on returning to the map just because you can’t finish the dungeon. And it’s still one of the best.
Savepoint systems aren’t the only thing, and Persona 3 is more thought-provoking than it is suicidal and/or depressing. Why not think about blowing your own brains out with a metaphorical gun in the shape of a thought-provoking game? Don’t you think that’s what Persona 3 really is about?
If you can’t see what’s below the skin, don’t say anything about it.
first of all, its not a real gun, nor a fake gun. its an EVOKER which is ocmpletely different from a gun. EVOKERS do NO damage to the person and are only meant to bring about the manifestation of their persona(the only way to fight against and defeat the evil consuming the world). there are also REAL guns used in this game that DO hurt and kill people.
if people would actually get past the opening cutscene of the game and not judge it for just this one aspect(which is not even about suicide), maybe more people could understand how truely great this story really is.
to justyn fry:
totally agree ^.^ throughout the game you really feel a strong connection for each of the characters and that makes the story much more emotional and entertaining
personally i like the spaced save points. whenever i get to a really good part in the story i make a seperate save slot so i can always go back to it later. since the save points are spaced it gives you the needed dialogue to get back into the story at that time if you had forgotten anything and allows you to relive the cutscene/battle just the same as the first time you played
this is why i believe critics are just plain annoying, you cant open up your mind and even consider other peoples ideas of the meanings behind games.
also, u cant compare games and resterants, u can see rotten food before you put it in your mouth u cant judge a game by playing a few hours, they have a tendancy to make little sence in the begining
This read was a waste of time. Peterb sounds like a Christian and is probably mad you can take control of Lucifer and destroy shit.
Christianity sucks and THAT is why you’re mad at this game.
I just sat here and read this whole string of comments (and I think I wasted more than 15 minutes right there), despite having never played persona 3. I just thought it looked interesting, and so googled ‘persona 3′. I still think the game looks interesting, even if it is immoral. (?) Since I have never played persona 3, I can’t say whether it is or not. However: these comments, they are funny. Seriously.
Also, I think people keep misunderstanding the OP, and then you get into these sort of gritty arguments about the guy’s right to say something or deny someone else’s opinion or whatever. I don’t think he was dissing on people who bought the game. I think he was dissing on the game’s usage of the image of a teenager shooting himself in the head, and the game creators, not y’all. So! It is okay.
Oh wait, this review is from a long time ago. Oh well.
ADDENDUM: that commenter above me? The “I hate society” person? I laugh at them.
Dear Peter,
I’m a game-player girl from Spain and i’ve played Persona 3 and now I’m playing Persona 3 FES
In my country, there is’nt that game, so I play it with the English version.
I want to say that I’m desagree:
Maybe the Persona’s summon version is a bit “Shoking”, but if you see the other Persona’s game (Persona 2, now Persona 4…) They don’t use that summon version.
And Atlus don’t want to show or inculcate suicidal thoughts, because the main characters fight against a being called “Nyx”, who represents any thought of desire of death, suicidal thoughts.
So, Atlus does not want that you stick a shot, but you avoid this option and look the one that is more complicated but the the most wise: To continue the way of the life towards ahead.
At the opening song says
“I’ll break the chain
And run till I see the sunlight again
I’ll lift my face and run to the sunlight”
I think that it means that he want to live, not die.
And finally, that manga hentai of Persona 3 is a fan made creation.
It is not a made cómic in order that the game became more popular, but because the fans of the history or prominent figures (that I declare myself one of them) mount the histories for pure amusement.
I can understand that you cannot stand the way of invoking of the game, but in P4 they do it with cards, you do not have to think it so to chest
Good, I just to say sorry because my english is poorly, and I want to say sorry if I have make any mistake.
I wish that you have understand my explanation n_nU
Yours is one of the most matured and conscious comments on persona ever, thank you for bringing Jungian and psychological perspectives and interpretations to video game fans.
I have played 40 hours of persona, I can make Lv 20 personas.
–Only people without responsibility – kids – can tolerate such broken save systems.– what if the fact of the struggle to find a save point represents the search for some light at the end of the Tartarus/night/dream/nightmare? What if it is a part of the story as boredom might be a character in a bored novel? You can not establish start/end-save/continue point in real live any time you want, a divorce process can take months, gestation, studying a career, the concept of: it takes time to be done, reinforces the complexity of things, and make the accomplishment valuable, you can run your way through these things, you can fight your self through these things, in the end it is not the end, it is the path (something way deeply inside the Japanese and oriental philosophy oriented societies). The real motive for doing anything, it is the same as going through Tartarus finding a way back to 1f save point.
–but most would say that trying to simply overpower it by whacking it over the head will more likely lead to constant unhappiness, rather than self-discovery— you are dead right, but the process of self-discovery can have self destructive stages, like dark ones, like sad ones, so each time they summon a persona (or any one of us recurs to something not well defined inside of us as a test of trial and error to see if that something might work for us) they do not deny them self, they try inside them to find a possible solution to the task at hand, in the end, there is no manifestation of the persona with out the willing and conscious, even strategic considerations of the persona user him her self, so the act of blowing your mind, romanticized to boredom, it is no different of any other self discovery or adapting action of the self confronting a problem.
The art is bound to shock the eye, but ask for the soul and the mind to see.
Thanks for your effort on video games; every post is one step closer to art level acceptance.
In real life there are shadows everywhere and you have to shoot yourself in the head to open your eyes, it’s a tough decision which requires wits from you to do so, not some desperate hopeseeking act.
I actually interpret this game as very bright and life-pulsating. It’s cheerful character is reinforced by storyline and not only, the music is very optimistic too. I appreciate your efforts to decipher game’s phsychological nature but I think you miss the point completely.
OK, after looking at some of this, on one hand I can see how the game could be misinterpreted. Did you know that the weapon is entirely fake? They don’t actually shoot a live weapon into their skulls like that–it’s just a tool to incite intense emotional stress. This emotional stress causes their Persona to come forth and do their bidding, if but for a short time. While I can see the link to suicide in this, by no means are they trying to make it seem like the right choice. If you had gotten deeper into the story, a number of the people don’t even WANT the power of the Persona, but they were chosen and there’s nothing they can do about it. As someone above mentioned, also: there are real guns in the game, and not once is one of them used in an act of suicide–at least as far as I’ve played (62 hours into the game or so, Approximate Tartarus Floor 141).
On the topic of hentai, most of it is Japanese in origin, and as many people above me have said, it’s all fan-made. Atlus didn’t have anything to do with that, and I don’t think their creators would really want for such material to promote the game. And really, how are you going to know what to look for if you’re not already at least mildly interested in the game?
And I guess lastly, somewhat returning to my first point: the social link system in the game also should help show that this game really isn’t as dark and angsty as it seems. Yes, a lot of problems are brought to light by the characters in social link events, but real life has problems just like them. “My uncle wants me to go back home and leave Japan” or even “I have this thing for older women, and I’m trying to formulate a plan to make it work.” Yeah, the second one is a little bizarre, but high school students sometimes do get crushes on their teachers… Your goal in them is to cheer them up and bolster their confidence (in the first case) or show your support (in the second case). Heck, you can even get into romantic relationships–and if you neglect any social link for too long, it will become Reversed or Broken. This, at least in my opinion, has a little bit of hidden meaning, or a moral: nurture your relationships with friends–you need them just as much as they need you. The game also seems to have another positive message: Make every day you’ve got count. In the game, whether it be studying, training, nurturing relationships with friends and those you’re attracted to, you only have so much time to do the things you want and need to do, so do as much as humanly possible with the time you’ve got.
All right, I guess that wasn’t “lastly”…I still feel like I have something to say. Sorry for all the babbling, but I saw this and felt the urge to respond. While I can see how you wouldn’t like the save system, there are only a few points in the game where the ability to return to the nearest save point isn’t a minute or two away–firstly, during the normal part of the day (school, after school) and during important sequences, such as full moons or other incidents that might come up. On nearly every floor of Tartarus there is a panel you can access to warp back to the first floor, which is where you save. There have only been a few instances where I couldn’t get back to the first floor when I’ve needed to, and those were usually taken care of within the minute. Sneak by or fight the shadows between you and the next floor, then check there for the warp panel. Heck, if you’re in even more of a hurry to get to the 1st floor save point, have your party split up, with the “Explore Area” tactic–the moment someone finds the stairs or the warp, they’ll tell you so you can get out of there. There’s inherent danger in this, but on the whole it’s worked for me.
And to further clarify where I’m coming from, I’m 24, and taking time to learn a programming language so I can enhance my chances of employment. While I do tend to have a lot of time on my hands (and have even had to let the game sit at the menu screen because something urgent came up), I’ve not had too much trouble with the save system.
And now, I’m finally done with this last comment, relating to the save issue:
I guess, looking at it, I have seen better save systems. In…I think it was the Evolution series for the Dreamcast, at the end of each floor you had the option to suspend play in a Suspend File, which upon reload would delete itself. At least this method lets you stop at perfectly reasonable points, but still keeps the challenge of the game because you have to use the game’s normal save system to save a more permanent file in case you fail and game-over.
All right, I’ve done enough jumping from topic to topic–my brain is moving faster than I can keep up. I guess I’ll leave it at that–I hope I’ve been able to shed a little more light on this (what I view to be a) masterpiece of a game.
Okay, I’ve played through more of the game, and I do have a change to make. I can see one major instance where you’d be right about the save system–at the end of the 12th Full Moon Operation. That operation is supposed to be monumental in nature–everyone in the dorm thinks that it’s the end of their struggle…only to find out that it isn’t. This sequence (yes, I’ve timed it) drags on for approximately 30 minutes, while some friends of mine were waiting for me so we could do something. I’m not afraid to admit, at least in this instance, that I was slightly wrong. (I say “slightly wrong” because so far this is the only instance where a save point has been THAT far away.)
Just thought I’d clarify on my previous comment. I’m not about to leave a statement that makes my post look discreditable sit there to be picked at.
Actually, I was nearly proven wrong a second time–there is an act of suicide which almost involved a gun, but it was resolved…at least in the gun regard. The characters involved still did manage to commit suicide, but it was in more of a “stereotypical JRPG” fashion than anything else. I won’t give details–anyone who wants to find out more about what I’m talking about needs to play through the game on their own–my save comment already almost gives stuff away.
Anyway, take care.
I like pie.
Note: This comment has been edited by the site owners to completely change its meaning. -The Management.
Eh. I just don’t think he fully played the game at the time of the review, or had the capacity to even understand the concepts of the plot. And the hentai thing is completely random. There’s hentai about EVERYTHING. Rule 34. It’s not just japanese stuff. It’s everywhere. Anyone can draw it. Although the dialogue and other tedious concepts were irritating, and the fact that you are ONLY IN CONTROL OF ONE CHARACTER are bad points for this game, it’s still a solid and fun RPG— The awards and ratings have proved it. And bashing something only on the basis of them shooting themselves in the head with FAKE guns isn’t really logical.
There’s no gore when they do it. They don’t die when they do it. It’s not even suicidal. Sure, some lunatic might get the impression that by shooting themselves in the head with a ammo-less fake gun that can’t even kill (It’s stated that the Evoker is NOT a weapon). Now, I haven’t completely beaten the game, (because I got it late— My friend reccomended it.) and the fact that I don’t devote all of my time to playing it, I don’t fully know if suicide does happen.
But, I honestly don’t think the audience of the this game would go and kill themselves over it. By now, someone would have, and we would’ve heard about it on the internets.
It is really tedious, however, and I understand what you say about saving. Sometimes, you spend so much time going through dialogue, you can’t save when you really need too. Persona 4 is coming out— They use glasses for something this time, and it’s a murder-mystery style… So, got any objections to that? I bet in your review, Martha Stewart is going to be used. I predict it.
But, yeah. If you’ve played a Persona game, it’s heavily occult, and it has a great style that appeals to people. If Persona 2 was more widely accessible, (I have it downloaded…)it’d be controversial too. It seems like it would be more of your type, however, seeing as you can save anywhere.
Persona 3 was a great game, but it had tons of room for improvement. Cut out the meaningless dialouge, and add in more story. I’m still skipping through the talking to progress in the story. Tartarus is annoying, as well. I can’t stand random dungeons.
I think you’ve done a good job defending yourself, and your views, and I think the opposition has been great, too. You don’t really apprieciate a game until someone talks smack about it.
-Chiu
First of all, I disagree with you saying that suicide is a theme. Only TWO people even committed suicide; and they were criminals! The evokers used by the protagonists aren’t even loaded; it’s the thought of a putting a gun to the head along with the sound that are meant to create a traumatizing enough experience to hence, evoke, the persona. And saying that the opening theme romanticizes suicide is practically a insult to the entire development team for that video. It says in bright red MEMENTO MORI, and even if you didn’t know what that means (which is pretty ignorant) it translates it into several languages, including English! As for the save points; the only time it even takes long are plot dialogue areas that might have a boss somewhere in the middle, and if you can’t beat the boss it’s your fault for being a crap level. Plus, judging by the fact you get upset over 15 min. is pretty shallow. How many people come home from school or work and play a RPG, no ANY game for FIVE minutes, and then turn off the console for the rest of the day? You might as well not even play the game! I respect your right to express yourself and your views however you want on the internet, but if you’re not even going to finish the game before writing a review, regardless of it being positive or negative, let the people at IGN and Gamespot do their job.
Gosh, I don’t know how I could have thought that suicide was a theme of the game when multiple people in the game committed suicide and the entire combat mechanic involves watching people put magic gun-shaped tokens up to their head and pulling the triggers. Thinking that that imagery was evocative or suggestive of suicide? That’s crazy talk!
“How many people come home from school or work and play a RPG, no ANY game for FIVE minutes, and then turn off the console for the rest of the day? “
Today’s exam contains a math word puzzle.
Quentin comes home from a hard day at the steel mill. Wanting to enjoy a videogame, Quentin turns on his new favorite RPG, Wankona 3: Shin Megami Lain, which involves defending the honor of your favorite game on the Internet. Shin Megami Lain only lets you save when you reach or return to certain points, which happen about every 15 minutes. Quentin plays Shin Megami Lain for 62 minutes. During the 67th minute Quentin starts to get a little bored of the game, and wants to stop. But since he has just found a new magic item (the Quiver of Infinite Wanky Replies), he doesn’t want to just turn off his console and lose the last 7 minutes of gameplay. How many more minutes must Quentin continue playing Shin Megami Lain for before he can finally turn off the console?
Note that if anything, I’ve probably understated the complete awfulness of Persona 3’s save system. If I recall correctly, when you’re in the tower, you can only save by going back to the ground floor, but you can only teleport back to some of the tower floors, every 5 floors or so. So if we assume that it takes about 10 minutes to clear a floor (probably that estimate is a bit low, based on how long combat takes), then the player is actually actively punished for saving the game, since to get back to (roughly) where they were, they’ll likely have to fight through several lower floors.
Sure hope there are never any power outages where you live.
“And saying that the opening theme romanticizes suicide is practically a insult to the entire development team for that video.”
I’m sorry that my writing was so poor that you thought it was only practically an insult. Let me try again: the people who designed that video were bad people, and I think they should feel ashamed.
I don’t really want to get too involved in this but felt I should point out that Fuuka gets the ability to instantly warp you back to the entrance in Tartarus.
Like the guy above me I don’t want to get heavily involved either, but I do have a request. I would prefer that something like this be divided into two articles or at least have a clear distinction between points. At some points you’re definitely reviewing game mechanics (e.g. save points), but in the middle you start to group the game review with your own opinion of the game’s ethics. I don’t have a problem with you not liking the game’s ideology, but would prefer that the review and critique remain separate less the review seem bias.
You are right. It would be unseemly to let informed opinion enter into the game review process. Game reviews are much better if they are just checklists with numbers between 1 and 5 after each item. After all, you can’t let subjective opinion leak into critical writing. No one has ever done that before.
Committing suicide is so gay.
I think the author of 97 is more biased than he lets know.
The day I take writing advice from someone sufficiently ignorant to say “less the review seem bias” is the day I imitate the characters in Persona 3.
And with that, and over 100 comments (!), this thread is closed.